flying lizards vs the corvette
10-17-2009, 01:30 AM
#31
The way I saw it is that Jan used the rear bumper of Joerg as a brake and if it happened to wreck the P car, then so be it.
Conversely, Joerg tried to block and ended up squeezing Jan into the wall.
Two wrongs, IMHO.
I also agree with others that the Corvette's from GT1 are not used to such close racing and will have to adapt.
What we can all agree on is that the 2010 season is going to be spectacular
Conversely, Joerg tried to block and ended up squeezing Jan into the wall.
Two wrongs, IMHO.
I also agree with others that the Corvette's from GT1 are not used to such close racing and will have to adapt.
What we can all agree on is that the 2010 season is going to be spectacular
10-17-2009, 02:26 AM
#34
Burning Brakes
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The Stewards felt they were both wrong, that is why they were put on probation for the first 2 races of next season. I was told that both Drivers accepted the decision of the Officials, without logging any type of appeal.
10-17-2009, 02:31 AM
#35
Race Director
Probation for 2 races? Big deal. I think the other guys will respect Bergmeister a little more from now on. Next year is going to be interesting.
10-17-2009, 02:53 AM
#36
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Yea, next year will be real interesting because GT2 will be the elite class of ALMS. Acura hasn't made a decision if they will be back next year in the LMP1 class since they were competing against themselves.
Also Jag will be fielding 2 cars next season, Ferrari will still run the 430 but with updated technology, the Bimmers will be competitive and naturally the Corvettes. I've also heard the Panoz will be fielding a new car that will be more competitive. This will definitely make the GT2 field pretty exciting to watch, and hopefully the official will take that 55lbs weight restriction off the Lizard team so they can run for the Championship again.
Also Jag will be fielding 2 cars next season, Ferrari will still run the 430 but with updated technology, the Bimmers will be competitive and naturally the Corvettes. I've also heard the Panoz will be fielding a new car that will be more competitive. This will definitely make the GT2 field pretty exciting to watch, and hopefully the official will take that 55lbs weight restriction off the Lizard team so they can run for the Championship again.
10-17-2009, 05:54 AM
#37
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Dez, it's all conjecture....neither you nor I were there.
Only two guys really know what happened on the track !!!
One has spoken... the other remains mute !!!
I didn't say Jan was "brake-checked", only offering the info (one possibility) in response to John H's inquiry.
Read Jan's comments....
then draw your own conclusions.
Controlled aggression is a good thing, intentionally running someone into the wall is something else.
That is dripping with hypocrisy.
10-17-2009, 09:41 AM
#38
Rennlist Member
I'm proud of Bergmeister. You don't think this wasn't going through his mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL2HF...ayer_embedded#
Seriously, I remember people here fairly universally praising Melo for how he handled himself at Sebring and critiqued Bergmeister for giving it away and not being tough enough. Well, Bergmeister learned!
(Btw, watching that Sebring clip still makes my heart race. What a finish, even if the wrong car won.)
Seriously, I remember people here fairly universally praising Melo for how he handled himself at Sebring and critiqued Bergmeister for giving it away and not being tough enough. Well, Bergmeister learned!
(Btw, watching that Sebring clip still makes my heart race. What a finish, even if the wrong car won.)
10-17-2009, 11:31 AM
#39
RL Community Team
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Anything the drivers say after the fact in forums etc is much less meaningful to me than what the actual response was right after the incident.
If Jan had really felt that Joerg was unfair and he, Jan, was innocent, would he not have been mad as h*ll getting out of the car and demanding that Joerg be penalized? It seems his reaction AT THE TIME was much more mild, which suggests to me that he knew he had been playing in the mud too.
IF the Vette had prevailed it would have been a cheap win anyway, due to that punting.
BOTH drivers deserve to be reprimanded. Whether the probation is enough is a seperate matter.
If Jan had really felt that Joerg was unfair and he, Jan, was innocent, would he not have been mad as h*ll getting out of the car and demanding that Joerg be penalized? It seems his reaction AT THE TIME was much more mild, which suggests to me that he knew he had been playing in the mud too.
IF the Vette had prevailed it would have been a cheap win anyway, due to that punting.
BOTH drivers deserve to be reprimanded. Whether the probation is enough is a seperate matter.
10-17-2009, 01:46 PM
#40
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If we could review the data from the data acquisition systems on both cars and had better video footage from various angles, then maybe we could figure this one out with a bit more confidence. However, in the absence of this, here are some things that stand out in my mind:
1. Even though the Corvette appeared to be the faster car at the end of the race, when the guys ran the last corner clean for several laps prior to the last lap, the Corvette could never pass the Porsche prior to the start/finish line.
2. The Porsche actually had a reasonably significant gap on the Corvette at the last corner of the last lap which would result in an experienced racing driver being MUCH less likely to use a "brake check" maneuver. Typically, brake checks are used when the trailing car is very close to the lead car when entering a corner.
3. Based on point #1 above, the Corvette knew the only way he had any chance to pass the Porsche was for the Porsche to make a mistake or for the Corvette to hit the Porsche.
4. It is very clear that the Corvette hit the Porsche hard. The Corvette certainly could have avoided this contact had the driver really wanted to avoid the contact.
5. After the Corvette hit the Porsche, it is very clear that the Porsche initially squeezed the Corvette TO the wall but not INTO the wall.
6. As the two drivers traveled along the wall, both were absolutely at full throttle trying to get to the finish line first. As they were doing this, the Corvette clearly was on the dirty and much more slippery line.
7. The part where the Corvette spins is where this debate gets even more heated. Did the Porsche spin the Corvette? Or, did the Corvette just simply lose control on his own? Unfortunately, we don't have enough information to absolutely figure this last point out, however, anyone who says there is no way the Corvette could have lost control on its own is really kidding themselves. Based on this, I don't think anyone can say beyond reasonable doubt that the Porsche spun the Corvette.
In summary, when I consider the all of the above in total, I think this simply boils down to extremely hard racing between two very talented drivers. We cannot just say that the incident was absolutely the fault of one driver or the other. The ALMS has allowed a certain amount of rough driving without significant penalties in the past and this will only continue to occur (or maybe even escalate) in the future if the ALMS doesn't take a more assertive stance on rough driving.
Jeff
1. Even though the Corvette appeared to be the faster car at the end of the race, when the guys ran the last corner clean for several laps prior to the last lap, the Corvette could never pass the Porsche prior to the start/finish line.
2. The Porsche actually had a reasonably significant gap on the Corvette at the last corner of the last lap which would result in an experienced racing driver being MUCH less likely to use a "brake check" maneuver. Typically, brake checks are used when the trailing car is very close to the lead car when entering a corner.
3. Based on point #1 above, the Corvette knew the only way he had any chance to pass the Porsche was for the Porsche to make a mistake or for the Corvette to hit the Porsche.
4. It is very clear that the Corvette hit the Porsche hard. The Corvette certainly could have avoided this contact had the driver really wanted to avoid the contact.
5. After the Corvette hit the Porsche, it is very clear that the Porsche initially squeezed the Corvette TO the wall but not INTO the wall.
6. As the two drivers traveled along the wall, both were absolutely at full throttle trying to get to the finish line first. As they were doing this, the Corvette clearly was on the dirty and much more slippery line.
7. The part where the Corvette spins is where this debate gets even more heated. Did the Porsche spin the Corvette? Or, did the Corvette just simply lose control on his own? Unfortunately, we don't have enough information to absolutely figure this last point out, however, anyone who says there is no way the Corvette could have lost control on its own is really kidding themselves. Based on this, I don't think anyone can say beyond reasonable doubt that the Porsche spun the Corvette.
In summary, when I consider the all of the above in total, I think this simply boils down to extremely hard racing between two very talented drivers. We cannot just say that the incident was absolutely the fault of one driver or the other. The ALMS has allowed a certain amount of rough driving without significant penalties in the past and this will only continue to occur (or maybe even escalate) in the future if the ALMS doesn't take a more assertive stance on rough driving.
Jeff
10-17-2009, 03:56 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
Joerg didn't need to brake check, he was far enough ahead in the last corner, and had been faster on the straights all day. Besides a brake check from that far away would have still given the vette a chance to make a run on him if the vette actually used the brakes.
Jan just flew from way back and was headed off the track if there weren't an RSR there to stop his momentum.
Even if it were a park job, Jan never applied any additional braking to try to avoid contact, and with Joerg at the apex, that would have been his only choice. Funny how you've never seen such driving except from the Corvettes, and still only the Corvette's pulling stunts like that.
Someone needs to tell them there is nothing wrong with clean racing. Joerg's reputation is starkly in contrast to that of the factory Corvette team, and for good reason.
Not one guy with any ***** in here would say they would let a guy almost punt them off the track on the last lap of a major race, then just give up while they try to force their way by.
Jan just flew from way back and was headed off the track if there weren't an RSR there to stop his momentum.
Even if it were a park job, Jan never applied any additional braking to try to avoid contact, and with Joerg at the apex, that would have been his only choice. Funny how you've never seen such driving except from the Corvettes, and still only the Corvette's pulling stunts like that.
Someone needs to tell them there is nothing wrong with clean racing. Joerg's reputation is starkly in contrast to that of the factory Corvette team, and for good reason.
Not one guy with any ***** in here would say they would let a guy almost punt them off the track on the last lap of a major race, then just give up while they try to force their way by.
10-17-2009, 05:28 PM
#42
What truly is disappointing to me is seeing Trumper, a guy I generally respect, coming over here and trying to lure rennlisters into the cluster F that CF has become...Wayne, really?
I can't believe the IDIOTS who think that there was a "brake check" on that last corner. Jan drilled him. Jan also took out another of the other competitors during the race...Check in with the GMG boys to confirm how he took them out of competition earlier in the race... And there was other overly aggressive contact during the race.
I guess because he was driving a Vette "anything goes." If the shoe was on the other foot, and Berg hit Jan from behind, you'd be singing the same tune??? Likely not... and still, sad... Says a lot about a whole lot man...
Really Sad.
Mike Kelly
I can't believe the IDIOTS who think that there was a "brake check" on that last corner. Jan drilled him. Jan also took out another of the other competitors during the race...Check in with the GMG boys to confirm how he took them out of competition earlier in the race... And there was other overly aggressive contact during the race.
I guess because he was driving a Vette "anything goes." If the shoe was on the other foot, and Berg hit Jan from behind, you'd be singing the same tune??? Likely not... and still, sad... Says a lot about a whole lot man...
Really Sad.
Mike Kelly
10-17-2009, 09:24 PM
#43
In Your Face, Ace
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I'm proud of Bergmeister. You don't think this wasn't going through his mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL2HF...ayer_embedded#
10-18-2009, 01:39 AM
#44
Burning Brakes
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There's been a little more....regarding driver's comments about the incident than shown here !!!
I really don't want to get into a pi$$ing contest so you might want to go over to
www.corvetteforum.com
and check the autocrossing & road racing section to see both Johnny O's and Jan's comments about the incident.
Also includes additional pictures and comments about the "accident".
Just as I feared....
I'm really surprised Mikelly... What in the World prompted a personal attack...
in reponse to the five posts I've made on this thread?
You may dis-agree with Jan Magnussen's comments,
never-the-less that's what is posted on his web site.
In response to Streak's post, I provided Jan's website address, so his comments are available for all to read.
I admit... I credit comments from someone who was personally involved in the incident more than racing fans conjecture, both here and on the Vette forum. That doesn't mean I believe 100% of what I read... but IMO... it is the more credible source.Some of us think both driver's, Jan & Berg were in the "wrong"...
you have every right to have a different opinion...
but then...
so do the rest of us.
Oh, and Mikelly,I didn't just... "come over here"...
I've been here since Oct. 2001.
Maybe you'll get a different perspective.... not saying he's right or wrong, after visiting Jan's website.
Last edited by trumperZ06; 10-18-2009 at 02:53 AM.
10-18-2009, 08:35 AM
#45
I read his comments. I also read the comments posted elsewhere by atleast one other team complaining about Jan crashing them out of the race... Real sportsman that he is...
Wayne, I like and respect you and some of the other guys over there, but We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, until everyone recognizes that both drivers were at fault. Jan's actions caused this incident, period. The chest thumping of the masses over on CF are why I've given up posting over there.
Mike Kelly
Wayne, I like and respect you and some of the other guys over there, but We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, until everyone recognizes that both drivers were at fault. Jan's actions caused this incident, period. The chest thumping of the masses over on CF are why I've given up posting over there.
Mike Kelly
Last edited by Mikelly; 10-18-2009 at 09:56 AM.