Lots of fire suppression system questions
10-14-2009, 06:22 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
Great analogy.... I have to find a way to work that into more sentences :-)
Also great write-up overall... making me reconsider my choice of AFF... I did not like the fact that Halon was a gas, and could be blown away, but did no consider that being a gas it can also sneak around and find the fire
Also great write-up overall... making me reconsider my choice of AFF... I did not like the fact that Halon was a gas, and could be blown away, but did no consider that being a gas it can also sneak around and find the fire
10-14-2009, 07:36 PM
#18
Mr. Excitement
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Great analogy.... I have to find a way to work that into more sentences :-)
Also great write-up overall... making me reconsider my choice of AFF... I did not like the fact that Halon was a gas, and could be blown away, but did no consider that being a gas it can also sneak around and find the fire
Also great write-up overall... making me reconsider my choice of AFF... I did not like the fact that Halon was a gas, and could be blown away, but did no consider that being a gas it can also sneak around and find the fire
As with many things I think folks need to weigh the pros and cons using real info and decide based on what they do and where they live. I you lived in FL and never drove up north the freeze aspects are lower than if you lived in NY. That kind of thing.
With any system it is hard to drive when on fire or when you and the windscreen is covered in foam. Getting the car stopped is Job One.
10-14-2009, 09:53 PM
#19
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I am going to make a couple of hopefuly very respectful dis-agreements here, please understand that the capitolized stressed words are simply emphasized rather than being arguemenative:
Having actually been in (twice) and under (once) a car when a Halon system was discharged (all three "accidental", once by an inexperienced driver, once by inexperienced crew, once while the car was on fire and I was trying to GTH out) I have to say that halon is dangerous- YOU CANNOT BREATHE and this could very likely make the difference in getting your belts off and out of the car vs not being able to breathe, even for a moment, and panicing even further or losing concentration it requires to GET OUT OF THE CAR. Now perhaps the majority of us are truly steely-eyed and deliberate souls, but having been in the situation of being in a car on fire I came as near to complete panic as I have ever been, and the Halon only exasserbated the panic when I couldnt breathe. NO, I really dont think in a typical race car with windows, vents, etc. you could actually die from the Halon itself. Also I am not saying that you shouldnt use a Halon system, just that given the choice, I would not again.
The cool soapy solution in AFFF IS not perfect. like many other things in a race car it requires care and maintanance to perform as expected. However, I very honestly am willing to live with the "problem" of having to remove a 5or 10lb bottle held into my car with clamps once a year and performing simple between race service inspections. I DO NOT particularly care for the CO2 delivery method, and would prefer a better and purpose-built design, such as a built-in CO2 tank that could be recharged with a guage to read pressure, and am sure some enterprising manufacturer could make exactly such a gadget.
Having actually been in (twice) and under (once) a car when a Halon system was discharged (all three "accidental", once by an inexperienced driver, once by inexperienced crew, once while the car was on fire and I was trying to GTH out) I have to say that halon is dangerous- YOU CANNOT BREATHE and this could very likely make the difference in getting your belts off and out of the car vs not being able to breathe, even for a moment, and panicing even further or losing concentration it requires to GET OUT OF THE CAR. Now perhaps the majority of us are truly steely-eyed and deliberate souls, but having been in the situation of being in a car on fire I came as near to complete panic as I have ever been, and the Halon only exasserbated the panic when I couldnt breathe. NO, I really dont think in a typical race car with windows, vents, etc. you could actually die from the Halon itself. Also I am not saying that you shouldnt use a Halon system, just that given the choice, I would not again.
The cool soapy solution in AFFF IS not perfect. like many other things in a race car it requires care and maintanance to perform as expected. However, I very honestly am willing to live with the "problem" of having to remove a 5or 10lb bottle held into my car with clamps once a year and performing simple between race service inspections. I DO NOT particularly care for the CO2 delivery method, and would prefer a better and purpose-built design, such as a built-in CO2 tank that could be recharged with a guage to read pressure, and am sure some enterprising manufacturer could make exactly such a gadget.
10-15-2009, 09:20 AM
#20
Addict
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Rennlist Member
Very good/interesting point about the AFFF freezing - never considered that, and definitely a problem for me living in MI - car does freeze solid over the winter, and removing the bottle isn't much of an option.
I never understood the rationale of pointing the halon nozzle at the chest. I put mine (have a 10-lb Phoenix system from OG) pointing at my feet. Which is, coincidentally, where my friend who got toasty at the Glen got singed.
By the way, clarification to Clark's post - he could reach the pull for the system, but rollbar padding interfered with the action! Always sucks; I'd love to test this stuff out, make sure everything's set right, but it's kinda expensive to do so! LOL
Last point - while my current system is a pushbutton, my next system (for the DSR) will definitely be a pull-to-activate system. My teammate lost a race a couple of months ago when he had to park it due to an accidental discharge - car filled with drychem, from a handheld that came loose, on the first lap! Got lucky on cleanup, but nothing sucks more than having to park it from the pole. That's when I learned that pull systems are pretty hard to misfire.
I don't like the idea of relying on an electrical system to do the job for me. Maybe it's 'cause I work on electronics/auto safety systems...
I never understood the rationale of pointing the halon nozzle at the chest. I put mine (have a 10-lb Phoenix system from OG) pointing at my feet. Which is, coincidentally, where my friend who got toasty at the Glen got singed.
By the way, clarification to Clark's post - he could reach the pull for the system, but rollbar padding interfered with the action! Always sucks; I'd love to test this stuff out, make sure everything's set right, but it's kinda expensive to do so! LOL
Last point - while my current system is a pushbutton, my next system (for the DSR) will definitely be a pull-to-activate system. My teammate lost a race a couple of months ago when he had to park it due to an accidental discharge - car filled with drychem, from a handheld that came loose, on the first lap! Got lucky on cleanup, but nothing sucks more than having to park it from the pole. That's when I learned that pull systems are pretty hard to misfire.
I don't like the idea of relying on an electrical system to do the job for me. Maybe it's 'cause I work on electronics/auto safety systems...
10-15-2009, 10:06 AM
#21
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I really appreciate the great responses, guys! It looks like I'm going to roll with Halon that's activated by a manual system. The freezing aspect of AFFF is one more thing that I have to do in my already super-busy life.
Apex, Mark -
Looks like I'll stick with the good, ol' manual system.
Mike, thanks for the link and pointers. They definitely help.
Thanks. Trust me; in the event of a fire, I will make getting the eff out of the harnesses and car my first priority. Thanks for the advice.
Thanks, Chris!
I was hoping you'd post, Kurt. Love the cockblocker line. 
I remember our very recent conversation on manual versus electric activation when I was poring over your car at Summit. I've also read a lot of your posts from the past two years but wanted to start an updated thread.
Thanks, Nader. Looks like this is what you bought: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SA...B/?image=large
Regarding installation, keep in mind where you put the pull cable or push buttons. Make sure you can reach them when harnessed in the seat. We had a driver recently that had an oil fire, he couldn't reach the pull cable to actuate the system. Luckily, he was OK and not too much damage to the car but something to think about. Also practice getting out of the car with all of your equipment on and close your eyes. If the cockpit fills up with smoke, you won't be able to see anything. Common sense but sometimes simple things can be overlooked.
Looks like I'll stick with the good, ol' manual system.
Mark-
SafeCraft RS5AAA- http://www.safecraft.com/product_pag...&menu=&Search=
Again, with repect to mounting the pull, mine is on the door jamb just below the windshield header. When I get in the car, the safety pin with its ribbon are right where I need to fasten the window net, so I can't forget to pull it. The guys tie-wrapped the pin to the roll cage, so it hangs down during the race out of the way, and can be immediately reinserted in the paddock. Most importantly, I can reach the pull with either hand, and it's right there for anyone outside the car. Hope this all helps.
SafeCraft RS5AAA- http://www.safecraft.com/product_pag...&menu=&Search=
Again, with repect to mounting the pull, mine is on the door jamb just below the windshield header. When I get in the car, the safety pin with its ribbon are right where I need to fasten the window net, so I can't forget to pull it. The guys tie-wrapped the pin to the roll cage, so it hangs down during the race out of the way, and can be immediately reinserted in the paddock. Most importantly, I can reach the pull with either hand, and it's right there for anyone outside the car. Hope this all helps.
I do not like the Halon systems myself, at Road Atlanta years ago I watched a 911 burn practically to the ground because the driver popped the fire system while still moving, sucking the Halon out and with zero impact on the fire. This is a two-fold issue- first the halon system itself, second that the driver had never been instructed on how to use the system in the first place, ie- ideally you pull over, STOP the car, GET OUT OF THE CAR, pull fire system if you can reach it safely. If the fire is in the cockpit, you use the fire system to buy yourself a second or two to get out of the car. Sometimes you can push/pull the button on your way out, but the FIRST thought has to be GET OUT OF THE CAR, not try to save the car with the fire system. Also, if you can afford the wieght a handheld extinguisher in a Club car is a great idea, for the cornerworkers to use if needed. Once again, the thing to remember is GET OUT OF THE CAR, not save the car!
I installed this Safecraft system I bought from Lindsey Racing. It uses the Dupont FE-36 extinguishant which is inexpensive to recharge and you don't have to take the bottle in and out of the car in cold weather. I installed it myself (other than the bracket on the cage dash bar, which was fabbed by my cage builder) after borrowing a friend's tube bender and buying a $25 flaring tool at Home Depot. It's white too, which matches my car.
Yes there are vast amounts of Halon left. US gov used it in great amounts and at present use rates there is over 100 years stockpiled. You need to check with the venues you might be racing with. Some are going Green and not using Halon any longer.
I have not heard of Halon acting on metals. It is a part of as family of chemicals that are largely inert. Water is not inert to metal. I will have to look into this aspect further.
AFFF systems use water AND something to produce a foam film. This additive is one of a list that ranges from animal proteins to synthetic based chemicals. All AFFF systems leave a residue that will need to be cleaned. Some AFFF charges produce an almost diabolically slippery foam that I guess might interfere with exiting the car.
Something that I do not see getting discussed much. Foam can only suppress a fire when it can make contact with the fire. It does nothing to a choking smoke producing fire that is around a corner, behind you, in a tunnel or anywhere that the foam does not spray or flow. As a gas Halon will disburse and likely will be pulled to the fire by heat generated convection.
My personal choice was Halon. #1 for me was simple systems tend to work when needed. #2 was no freeze issues, I have enough stuff to forget already not having to think about repeatedly installing, removing and correctly reinstating a critical system like fire is a good thing for me.
The simple system. Manual push button system with the safety pin right at the button and easy to see and remove / replace while fully strapped in. The button is on the A pillar inside the cage bar and easy for me or someone outside the car to see and hit. The actuator cable is hardened in a braided stainless guide sheath and the cable and sheath can be deformed and still work when hit. The cable does not pull or push a lever that then has to do something to something that in turn needs to do something else like CO2 cartridge powered type systems. It punches through a foil cap and the Halon comes out. Stone cold simple. The bottle is mounted across the direction of travel and the tubing runs in the center of the car and as protected from damage in a accident as I could come up with.
Trust but verify. The only way to tell if a CO2 cartridge has CO2 in it is to carefully weigh it. A full one and one with a bad cap that is empty look the same. Halon systems all have a gauge and you can feel a large weight delta between full and empty in your hand. There is also no improper home based mixing of a Halon system, it is freeze stable and will work at 10 deg. An AFFF system is out of the car below 32. AFFF additives do not lower the freeze point enough to matter.
Biomechanics of Halon and you. Halon does not need to be in concentrations high enough to smother a fire as some other gasses do. Halon interferes with the chemical process of combustion. It is the **** blocker of fire and is damn good at it. 5% Halon in an otherwise fully combustible atmosphere will suppress combustion. You would need to be in a tightly enclosed chamber and have enough Halon to reduce the O2% way down from 20% in order to have breathing issues. Halon itself is not toxic. Skin freeze issues from liquid Halon discharge is a matter of proper install of the drivers compartment nozzle. Gaseous Halon does not cause skin freeze. I would take a frost bite patch over getting roasted any day
Accidental discharge. I bet more systems get fired by accident that in fires. I don’t want to get a face full of blinding foam at speed if something goes wrong.
Again this is all 100% non expert and only my personal opinion based on what I have gleaned and seen over the years. Opinion.
I have not heard of Halon acting on metals. It is a part of as family of chemicals that are largely inert. Water is not inert to metal. I will have to look into this aspect further.
AFFF systems use water AND something to produce a foam film. This additive is one of a list that ranges from animal proteins to synthetic based chemicals. All AFFF systems leave a residue that will need to be cleaned. Some AFFF charges produce an almost diabolically slippery foam that I guess might interfere with exiting the car.
Something that I do not see getting discussed much. Foam can only suppress a fire when it can make contact with the fire. It does nothing to a choking smoke producing fire that is around a corner, behind you, in a tunnel or anywhere that the foam does not spray or flow. As a gas Halon will disburse and likely will be pulled to the fire by heat generated convection.
My personal choice was Halon. #1 for me was simple systems tend to work when needed. #2 was no freeze issues, I have enough stuff to forget already not having to think about repeatedly installing, removing and correctly reinstating a critical system like fire is a good thing for me.
The simple system. Manual push button system with the safety pin right at the button and easy to see and remove / replace while fully strapped in. The button is on the A pillar inside the cage bar and easy for me or someone outside the car to see and hit. The actuator cable is hardened in a braided stainless guide sheath and the cable and sheath can be deformed and still work when hit. The cable does not pull or push a lever that then has to do something to something that in turn needs to do something else like CO2 cartridge powered type systems. It punches through a foil cap and the Halon comes out. Stone cold simple. The bottle is mounted across the direction of travel and the tubing runs in the center of the car and as protected from damage in a accident as I could come up with.
Trust but verify. The only way to tell if a CO2 cartridge has CO2 in it is to carefully weigh it. A full one and one with a bad cap that is empty look the same. Halon systems all have a gauge and you can feel a large weight delta between full and empty in your hand. There is also no improper home based mixing of a Halon system, it is freeze stable and will work at 10 deg. An AFFF system is out of the car below 32. AFFF additives do not lower the freeze point enough to matter.
Biomechanics of Halon and you. Halon does not need to be in concentrations high enough to smother a fire as some other gasses do. Halon interferes with the chemical process of combustion. It is the **** blocker of fire and is damn good at it. 5% Halon in an otherwise fully combustible atmosphere will suppress combustion. You would need to be in a tightly enclosed chamber and have enough Halon to reduce the O2% way down from 20% in order to have breathing issues. Halon itself is not toxic. Skin freeze issues from liquid Halon discharge is a matter of proper install of the drivers compartment nozzle. Gaseous Halon does not cause skin freeze. I would take a frost bite patch over getting roasted any day
Accidental discharge. I bet more systems get fired by accident that in fires. I don’t want to get a face full of blinding foam at speed if something goes wrong.
Again this is all 100% non expert and only my personal opinion based on what I have gleaned and seen over the years. Opinion.
I remember our very recent conversation on manual versus electric activation when I was poring over your car at Summit. I've also read a lot of your posts from the past two years but wanted to start an updated thread.
10-15-2009, 01:45 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
Mark,
summit racing is where I bought mine, but I do not remember which one exactly. Mine is 10 lbs white aluminum bottle with pull activation cable. 2 port , 3 nozzles.
Good luck.
summit racing is where I bought mine, but I do not remember which one exactly. Mine is 10 lbs white aluminum bottle with pull activation cable. 2 port , 3 nozzles.
Good luck.
10-15-2009, 03:29 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
I'll admit removing my AFFF bottle is a pain (it's mounted behind my passenger seat which is hard to get to because of my cage/door bars). If you mount the bottle somewhere more accessible, it would be easy.
But I'm glad I don't have the seemingly outdated Halon. I think a good compromise is the Safecraft system that Chris M. has and referred to.
But I'm glad I don't have the seemingly outdated Halon. I think a good compromise is the Safecraft system that Chris M. has and referred to.
