I propose a voluntary national dyno program
09-09-2009, 08:34 PM
#31
Three Wheelin'
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Sounds like you all should push for a rule change for an official way to declare a protest. Here's how our BMWCCACR rulebook reads:
A. Protests
1. A protest shall concern a decision, act, or omission of the organizers, officials, car, driver, or other person connected with an event; which is alleged to have made a violation of these rules. Protests must be made in writing, describe the violation, be signed by the Protester and be delivered to the Event Competition Steward. An event protest can only be made by an accepted Entrant or Event Organizer. A protest fee of $50.00 in cash or check (made out to BMW CCA Club Racing) shall accompany each protest. The fee shall be returned only if the protest is upheld; otherwise the fee will go to the BMW CCA Club Racing treasury. Protests against refusal of entry or license certification shall not be allowed. Appeal of the Protest Committee decisions are not allowed at an event. However an appeal of a Committee decision can be made to the National Appeals Committee within 10 business days after the event or decision, which ever is later.
2. Protest of an entrant’s vehicle must specify the car number, brief description of car, and reference the rules infraction with section number, etc. Protests should be submitted prior to qualifying or race sessions to allow proper reclassification, but must be submitted within 30 minutes of posting of results of the last officially timed run of the protested car. The protest must be submitted on the official protest form. These forms will be available at any given event from the Competition Steward and on the BMW Club Racing website. Except for extenuating circumstances, protests received later than 30 minutes will not be considered for prior results.
a. An “officially timed run” is defined as a qualifying or race session of any length on any sanctioned race day.
b. Once filed, a protest or Official Action must run its due course through the process.
3. The Protest Committee will inform the protested driver of the nature of the protest and indicate the specific components or actions under protest.
4. The Protest Committee has the right to impound any protested car and to determine the method of impound. Failure by the protested driver to comply will result in the protest being upheld and the driver being disqualified from the event weekend; this disqualification is not appealable. It is the protested driver's responsibility to present his car exactly when requested by the Committee in such a manner that a proper inspection can be completed. The car must remain unchanged until released by the Protest Committee. Failure to comply will result in an event disqualification of the vehicle and other penalties may be imposed.
5. The protest committee is not required to provide any official paperwork to the protested driver until such time as the protest process is completed. At that time the protested driver will be provided a copy should they wish to file an appeal in the event of an upheld protest. Protest Committee decisions are not appealable at the event.
6. For any inspection which is deemed to difficult or not feasible due to time constraints or facilities at the event, the event Technical Steward shall make arrangements to seal the vehicle or components such as to maintain a state of satisfactory impound until such time as an inspection can be made at an alternate time and location. This time and location is to be determined by the protest committee and agreeable to the event Technical Steward. Arrangements will be made by the event Technical Steward to perform the inspection and submit the findings to the protest committee, after which they will render a ruling. This process must be completed within 30 days of the event or the protest will be upheld.
7. Any BMW CCA Club Racing official may file an Official Action, which functions in the same manner as a protest except that no fee is required. Official Actions follow the same procedures for protests outlined in these sections.
8. The protest may request and specify that portions of the car be dismantled, inspected, or any other test made provided that the protester posts a cash bond with the Protest Committee sufficient to cover the total expense of disassembly, inspection and reassembly. If the car is found upon inspection to conform to the rules, the protester will forfeit the bond and it will then be used to cover costs involved. Should the actual costs be less than the posted bond, the protesting driver will be returned the difference. Should the actual costs be more, the protesting driver must cover this difference. If the car is found not to conform to the rules, the protester's bond shall be returned and the driver of the protested car shall bear all expenses including reimbursement of inspection costs and be subject to penalty. If the protest requests that multiple assemblies of the car be dismantled and inspected, then separate bonds will be required for each major assembly. For example if the protest includes inspections of both the differential and the ECU, a separate bond for each will be established. If the differential is found to be non-conforming while the ECU is found legal, the bond for the differential will be returned to the protester while the bond for the ECU will be forfeited and used to cover costs involved with the ECU inspection. Posting of cash bonds shall not be required for Official Actions and BMW CCA Club Racing will be responsible for applicable costs if the assembly is found to be compliant. Certain inspections may be held over at the discretion of the Committee, and then made after the event as a matter of convenience or technical need.
9. The Protest Committee shall at a minimum hear the arguments of the protester and the protested racer. They may also take other statements or make investigative actions they deem necessary by prevalence of the Committee members. By majority vote they will determine the validity of the Protest. The Committee shall determine penalties for upheld protests, which are appropriate to the seriousness of the offense. Depending upon the circumstances, it is not necessary that an upheld protest result in a penalty. The Committee may merely require reclassification of the vehicle or that vehicle corrections be made. The Protest Committee may deny any protest it deems to be spurious or a nuisance and retain the protest fee. If a car is found to be improperly classified or to have unauthorized modifications, any penalties (equal or differing) shall be assessed against all event drivers of the car up to that time.
10. The event’s Competition Steward shall normally be the chairman of the Protest Committee. He shall appoint two other committee members, one of who may be the event’s Technical Steward. The Steward shall also appoint 3 alternate members and prominently post or announce all the names at the event prior to the first on-track session. The alternate(s) will act as a committee member if any primary member is involved in the protest, has conflict of interest or is not available. Due to protest volume or conflicts of interest, it is possible to have more than one protest committee acting on separate matters. The Event Protest Committee(s) shall remain empowered until the later of all protests being resolved or the period for filing event protests having elapsed.
11. For any protest which is upheld via inspection, the protested competitor may opt to change the noncompliant part/parts in order to continue to run in their original class for the remainder of the event (only if the Protest Committee choose a penalty other than event disqualification). If the protest is upheld due to the competitor being DQ’d for failure to comply with any part of the protest process, they shall not be allowed to continue to compete in their original class for the remainder of the event regardless of the Protest Committee’s penalty decision.
A. Protests
1. A protest shall concern a decision, act, or omission of the organizers, officials, car, driver, or other person connected with an event; which is alleged to have made a violation of these rules. Protests must be made in writing, describe the violation, be signed by the Protester and be delivered to the Event Competition Steward. An event protest can only be made by an accepted Entrant or Event Organizer. A protest fee of $50.00 in cash or check (made out to BMW CCA Club Racing) shall accompany each protest. The fee shall be returned only if the protest is upheld; otherwise the fee will go to the BMW CCA Club Racing treasury. Protests against refusal of entry or license certification shall not be allowed. Appeal of the Protest Committee decisions are not allowed at an event. However an appeal of a Committee decision can be made to the National Appeals Committee within 10 business days after the event or decision, which ever is later.
2. Protest of an entrant’s vehicle must specify the car number, brief description of car, and reference the rules infraction with section number, etc. Protests should be submitted prior to qualifying or race sessions to allow proper reclassification, but must be submitted within 30 minutes of posting of results of the last officially timed run of the protested car. The protest must be submitted on the official protest form. These forms will be available at any given event from the Competition Steward and on the BMW Club Racing website. Except for extenuating circumstances, protests received later than 30 minutes will not be considered for prior results.
a. An “officially timed run” is defined as a qualifying or race session of any length on any sanctioned race day.
b. Once filed, a protest or Official Action must run its due course through the process.
3. The Protest Committee will inform the protested driver of the nature of the protest and indicate the specific components or actions under protest.
4. The Protest Committee has the right to impound any protested car and to determine the method of impound. Failure by the protested driver to comply will result in the protest being upheld and the driver being disqualified from the event weekend; this disqualification is not appealable. It is the protested driver's responsibility to present his car exactly when requested by the Committee in such a manner that a proper inspection can be completed. The car must remain unchanged until released by the Protest Committee. Failure to comply will result in an event disqualification of the vehicle and other penalties may be imposed.
5. The protest committee is not required to provide any official paperwork to the protested driver until such time as the protest process is completed. At that time the protested driver will be provided a copy should they wish to file an appeal in the event of an upheld protest. Protest Committee decisions are not appealable at the event.
6. For any inspection which is deemed to difficult or not feasible due to time constraints or facilities at the event, the event Technical Steward shall make arrangements to seal the vehicle or components such as to maintain a state of satisfactory impound until such time as an inspection can be made at an alternate time and location. This time and location is to be determined by the protest committee and agreeable to the event Technical Steward. Arrangements will be made by the event Technical Steward to perform the inspection and submit the findings to the protest committee, after which they will render a ruling. This process must be completed within 30 days of the event or the protest will be upheld.
7. Any BMW CCA Club Racing official may file an Official Action, which functions in the same manner as a protest except that no fee is required. Official Actions follow the same procedures for protests outlined in these sections.
8. The protest may request and specify that portions of the car be dismantled, inspected, or any other test made provided that the protester posts a cash bond with the Protest Committee sufficient to cover the total expense of disassembly, inspection and reassembly. If the car is found upon inspection to conform to the rules, the protester will forfeit the bond and it will then be used to cover costs involved. Should the actual costs be less than the posted bond, the protesting driver will be returned the difference. Should the actual costs be more, the protesting driver must cover this difference. If the car is found not to conform to the rules, the protester's bond shall be returned and the driver of the protested car shall bear all expenses including reimbursement of inspection costs and be subject to penalty. If the protest requests that multiple assemblies of the car be dismantled and inspected, then separate bonds will be required for each major assembly. For example if the protest includes inspections of both the differential and the ECU, a separate bond for each will be established. If the differential is found to be non-conforming while the ECU is found legal, the bond for the differential will be returned to the protester while the bond for the ECU will be forfeited and used to cover costs involved with the ECU inspection. Posting of cash bonds shall not be required for Official Actions and BMW CCA Club Racing will be responsible for applicable costs if the assembly is found to be compliant. Certain inspections may be held over at the discretion of the Committee, and then made after the event as a matter of convenience or technical need.
9. The Protest Committee shall at a minimum hear the arguments of the protester and the protested racer. They may also take other statements or make investigative actions they deem necessary by prevalence of the Committee members. By majority vote they will determine the validity of the Protest. The Committee shall determine penalties for upheld protests, which are appropriate to the seriousness of the offense. Depending upon the circumstances, it is not necessary that an upheld protest result in a penalty. The Committee may merely require reclassification of the vehicle or that vehicle corrections be made. The Protest Committee may deny any protest it deems to be spurious or a nuisance and retain the protest fee. If a car is found to be improperly classified or to have unauthorized modifications, any penalties (equal or differing) shall be assessed against all event drivers of the car up to that time.
10. The event’s Competition Steward shall normally be the chairman of the Protest Committee. He shall appoint two other committee members, one of who may be the event’s Technical Steward. The Steward shall also appoint 3 alternate members and prominently post or announce all the names at the event prior to the first on-track session. The alternate(s) will act as a committee member if any primary member is involved in the protest, has conflict of interest or is not available. Due to protest volume or conflicts of interest, it is possible to have more than one protest committee acting on separate matters. The Event Protest Committee(s) shall remain empowered until the later of all protests being resolved or the period for filing event protests having elapsed.
11. For any protest which is upheld via inspection, the protested competitor may opt to change the noncompliant part/parts in order to continue to run in their original class for the remainder of the event (only if the Protest Committee choose a penalty other than event disqualification). If the protest is upheld due to the competitor being DQ’d for failure to comply with any part of the protest process, they shall not be allowed to continue to compete in their original class for the remainder of the event regardless of the Protest Committee’s penalty decision.
09-09-2009, 09:02 PM
#32
Drifting
09-09-2009, 09:07 PM
#33
Drifting
09-09-2009, 09:58 PM
#34
09-09-2009, 10:09 PM
#35
NASA Racer
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09-09-2009, 10:10 PM
#36
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09-09-2009, 10:21 PM
#38
Drifting
09-09-2009, 10:29 PM
#39
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09-09-2009, 10:36 PM
#40
Drifting
09-09-2009, 11:26 PM
#42
Drifting
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Disagree. Plenty of folks with perfectly legal motors that don't want everyone to know what they are making. Not only do many who have invested a lot of time and $$ into maximizing their motor to the rules not want everyone to know just how much or how little they are making, but there are some things that can be "learned" from a dyno sheet that would be an advantage to others.
If you had a really great legal suspension setup, would you be happy to share your spring rates and damper curves with your competitors?
If you had a really great legal suspension setup, would you be happy to share your spring rates and damper curves with your competitors?
09-09-2009, 11:52 PM
#43
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Disagree. Plenty of folks with perfectly legal motors that don't want everyone to know what they are making. Not only do many who have invested a lot of time and $$ into maximizing their motor to the rules not want everyone to know just how much or how little they are making, but there are some things that can be "learned" from a dyno sheet that would be an advantage to others.
If you had a really great legal suspension setup, would you be happy to share your spring rates and damper curves with your competitors?
If you had a really great legal suspension setup, would you be happy to share your spring rates and damper curves with your competitors?
Maybe I'm willing to talk about it more because I'm near the back of the pack...nowhere to go but up for me!
09-10-2009, 12:03 AM
#44
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Further, some folks spend a lot of their hard earned time and money to develop an advantage over others (whether it's in car setup or their driving). Why would they want to give that away for free? Why even bother spending the time/money if the goal isn't to have something better than your competitor?
09-10-2009, 12:15 AM
#45
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Gentleman racing or not, I want to win. It takes car and driver to win in a class with any sort of competition. What sort of competitive person voluntarily gives away information to their competitors to help them beat you? If you aren't worried about winning and going faster than your competition, why even bother with racing, whether "gentleman" or not?
Further, some folks spend a lot of their hard earned time and money to develop an advantage over others (whether it's in car setup or their driving). Why would they want to give that away for free? Why even bother spending the time/money if the goal isn't to have something better than your competitor?
Further, some folks spend a lot of their hard earned time and money to develop an advantage over others (whether it's in car setup or their driving). Why would they want to give that away for free? Why even bother spending the time/money if the goal isn't to have something better than your competitor?
From the little I've seen, we help each other out. I need some ballast 'cause I'm having trouble making weight...someone steps up and lets me borrow their spare tire. Someone busts a trasmission or rocker arm, someone else donates the part or helps wrench the car back into shape overnight for the next race.
In my case, I'm ok being competitive to the point that I'm having fun. Do I want to win? Sure. Is it required to have fun? Hell no. If you can't have fun while not winning...
If the point is winning every time, and I really wanted that, I'd have picked a class that had *nobody* in it.