How PCA racing needs to reorganize
#61
I think the one thing we all need to take into consideration is that the PCA Club Racing organization is a volunteer based operation. Grand Am and ALMS have people who are paid to review all after race data to look at performance through out each class. Depending on what they find that is where they add or subtract weight from different makes and models to even out the field. By the middle of the season you usually have some pretty close racing once the changes settle in.
The people at PCA usually have day jobs that keep them rather busy - i know when I am bugging Donna about the rules she gets back to me when she can but it is usually after business hours.
The people at PCA usually have day jobs that keep them rather busy - i know when I am bugging Donna about the rules she gets back to me when she can but it is usually after business hours.
For an example of what can be done with published data and a bit of free time, take a look at http://www.rennpoints.com. This is a prototype of what a season points championship could look like for PCA. It also has cool things like class records and lap time predictions for the upcoming races.
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Larry Herman
Specific to Harry's arguement, the 993 has always had an unfair shake in PCA and they should pay closer attention to that. The cars that had the most production should be the ones that run at the front, and the rules should be adjusted to make that happen. I always felt that it was unfair to allow a stock 993 RSCS to be a class leader, considering that there are only a few real ones in the country and yet a generic 993 doesn't have much of a chance. However, as the prior owner of one such fully prepared RSA that Harry talked about, I can tell you that I would get my headlights sucked out by a "stock" 3.4 996 when it was setup properly. And 3.4 996s are a dime a dozen. So there will always be "the car" for a particular class, though that may change track to track.
What I originally wanted was for the stock classes to get more restrictive to try and bring that cost down some, the prepared classes to get less restrictive as that probably will not increase costs much over what they are now, and the "street tire option" in the race classes to go away (or get an equivalency factor). I do think that PCA racing should be different from other venues, just for that reason, and after all of the good discussion that I have read here, I still feel pretty much the same.
Specific to Harry's arguement, the 993 has always had an unfair shake in PCA and they should pay closer attention to that. The cars that had the most production should be the ones that run at the front, and the rules should be adjusted to make that happen. I always felt that it was unfair to allow a stock 993 RSCS to be a class leader, considering that there are only a few real ones in the country and yet a generic 993 doesn't have much of a chance. However, as the prior owner of one such fully prepared RSA that Harry talked about, I can tell you that I would get my headlights sucked out by a "stock" 3.4 996 when it was setup properly. And 3.4 996s are a dime a dozen. So there will always be "the car" for a particular class, though that may change track to track.
What I originally wanted was for the stock classes to get more restrictive to try and bring that cost down some, the prepared classes to get less restrictive as that probably will not increase costs much over what they are now, and the "street tire option" in the race classes to go away (or get an equivalency factor). I do think that PCA racing should be different from other venues, just for that reason, and after all of the good discussion that I have read here, I still feel pretty much the same.
M758
I think Harry and are on the same page. The stock classes have rules that can be helpful or problematic. However any series has them. There are many PCA stock guys thinging GTS is so fantastic since it is all power/weight. Well in PCA stock the chassis mods a all pretty similar so the biggest factor in power/weights in each class. However in GTS that is the only thing limits you. So you can make a really fast car using trick suspension, super wide tires and aero down force. Heck in GTS you can legally take a 2009 GT3 RSR complete with squential shift box and spend the $$$ to mate a 964 motor to it and then probably run itin GTS3 or maybe GTS2. Now it would be super expensive, but my guess be unbeatable and fully legal too.
So before you ditch all the PCA stock ideas why not hit the big issues in PCA.
1) ditch the carpets
2) Allow class weights to adjust for real power to balance the cars in class.
I have a feelin that doing this will make stock much more competitie and take the edge off the "cheater" mindset that some PCA guys feel exists. Sure thier may be some cheating, but alot of the "pulling away" comes from two things. Class weights which aid certain cars more than others and the fact that some guys area faster and have more momentum.
I think Harry and are on the same page. The stock classes have rules that can be helpful or problematic. However any series has them. There are many PCA stock guys thinging GTS is so fantastic since it is all power/weight. Well in PCA stock the chassis mods a all pretty similar so the biggest factor in power/weights in each class. However in GTS that is the only thing limits you. So you can make a really fast car using trick suspension, super wide tires and aero down force. Heck in GTS you can legally take a 2009 GT3 RSR complete with squential shift box and spend the $$$ to mate a 964 motor to it and then probably run itin GTS3 or maybe GTS2. Now it would be super expensive, but my guess be unbeatable and fully legal too.
So before you ditch all the PCA stock ideas why not hit the big issues in PCA.
1) ditch the carpets
2) Allow class weights to adjust for real power to balance the cars in class.
I have a feelin that doing this will make stock much more competitie and take the edge off the "cheater" mindset that some PCA guys feel exists. Sure thier may be some cheating, but alot of the "pulling away" comes from two things. Class weights which aid certain cars more than others and the fact that some guys area faster and have more momentum.
- allowing cars in "stock" to use a chip--chips are so common and make such a small difference in newer normally aspirated cars that it makes sense
- allowing camber plates in "stock"--they cost a lot less than the tire wear you will get otherwise
- keep remote-reservoir shocks in "prepared"
Actually, it is more complicated as "stock" really shouldn't allow race springs if the idea is that the cars are driveable to the track.
To me the stock rules, if they are to be made to function correctly, would require the rules to be tailored individually for each car and each class that it gets put in (both stock and prepared). As Brian said, this would take somebody with too much time on their hands. That is indeed somewhat the case, but it is not really an unrealistic objective and could be done with all the data PCA has from years of racing in the stock classes. It could then get adjusted each year and within a few years it would probably work really well. Given that we are talking about club racing and not professional racing, it would only have to be close for it to work quite well.
Because the stock/prepared classes aren't being adjusted properly, people are looking to other ways to get classes of cars that are relatively equal and competitive...Boxster spec, 911 spec, 996 spec, Cayman spec, etc. If the PCA stock/prepared classes were updated to keep cars relatively equal in each class, I think there would be a lot less interest in these spec classes. Because the stock/prepared classes aren't getting updated, they are getting in effect replaced with these spec rules through various grassroots efforts.
Harry
#63
Rennlist Member
Scanning this thread makes me think once again that motorsports can be divided into two kinds of racers: 'Owners,' and 'drivers.' The drivers want a spec series. The owners want formula libre.
The drivers yearn for a level playing field where they can measure their skill against the next guy.
The owners love the mechanical, strategic, logistical battles where they can know they've beaten most of the field before the racecar has left the trailer.
If you are in the 'driver' camp, sell your Porsche and get in a well governed spec series (easy to find; most of racing is converging on spec racing, from F1 down to SM, passing through all of US oval racing enroute)
If you are in the 'owner' camp, you're in luck: PCA club racing GT classes must be one of the last sanctioned 'open' classes on the planet where you can build the most outrageous fire-breather your balance sheet will permit.
Of course all of racing embodies various elements of both halves. Personally I think there was a purity to the original PCA intent: get Porsche Marque aficianados together for a good time out on the track.
Does anyone else feel it is amazing that no matter how many different racing series exist (there must be 1,000), everyone in each series seems perpetually dissatisfied!
The drivers yearn for a level playing field where they can measure their skill against the next guy.
The owners love the mechanical, strategic, logistical battles where they can know they've beaten most of the field before the racecar has left the trailer.
If you are in the 'driver' camp, sell your Porsche and get in a well governed spec series (easy to find; most of racing is converging on spec racing, from F1 down to SM, passing through all of US oval racing enroute)
If you are in the 'owner' camp, you're in luck: PCA club racing GT classes must be one of the last sanctioned 'open' classes on the planet where you can build the most outrageous fire-breather your balance sheet will permit.
Of course all of racing embodies various elements of both halves. Personally I think there was a purity to the original PCA intent: get Porsche Marque aficianados together for a good time out on the track.
Does anyone else feel it is amazing that no matter how many different racing series exist (there must be 1,000), everyone in each series seems perpetually dissatisfied!
#64
Race Director
PCA stock was based on the concept of driving a street car to the track and driving home. Well I just don't know if that concept is sound. Maybe it is, but rules creep makes it hard especially if there is such a gap between racing "street cars" and the techinal free for all of GT. If PCA wants to keep a "street driven" race car idea then the rules should be clamped down to allow for that. Then some greater allowance shoudl be make for lighly prepped race cars where they run with nice suspension, stock engine power, and modest weight reductions interior removal with classing weights adjusted to create some parity between the cars in each class. I think there is room in PCA for that, but if PCA stock = street driven race cars it will aways create too much gap between that and all out GT machines.
#65
Rennlist Member
In sum, the stock class rules need to be based on the maximum power that can be achieved using the available modifications for the class, and then adjusting the weights to equalize the cars on power/weight, with small adjustments for other factors that may make one car easier to drive than another. Using the factory published weight and the factory published power just doesn't make sense.
.
I understand that most drivers need to add tons of ballast to meet minimum weight requirements (3214 lbs for '96-'98 and 3170 for '95) and are strongly handicapped against the lighter and similarly powered 964s (2910 lbs) in class. It is common knowledge that the 964, with simple and allowed modifications (headers, cat-bypass) can achieve comparable HP numbers to similarly equipped 993s; yet, the 993 carries a whopping 304 lb penalty (260 lbs for the '95 MY). This is ludicrous. PCA should drop minimum weight for 993s by 200 lbs (3014 for '96-'98 and 2970 for '95 non v-ram cars). This would still allow for some handicapping for the 993's somewhat better rear suspension, as well as compensate for the '95 MY lack of v-ram.
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Glen:
I completely agree with everything you said. Mark and I have talked about this before. I would also send in a proposal. When I was discussing the rules before, I was trying to focus on the larger issues with the stock classes and not get into the weight issue with the 993 that I find very frustrating personally with my 993 in H prepared. There are other cars that have been inappropriately classed that I think should be addressed, though the case of the 993 which you so succinctly described is truly Exhibit A to how the club racing rules have gone wrong.
Harry
I completely agree with everything you said. Mark and I have talked about this before. I would also send in a proposal. When I was discussing the rules before, I was trying to focus on the larger issues with the stock classes and not get into the weight issue with the 993 that I find very frustrating personally with my 993 in H prepared. There are other cars that have been inappropriately classed that I think should be addressed, though the case of the 993 which you so succinctly described is truly Exhibit A to how the club racing rules have gone wrong.
Harry
#68
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jscott82...agree with you on the other two things as well. The GT2/EVO/RS uprights haven't been mentioned in this post before but should be allowed for the 993s (and arguably should be allowed for the 964s as well). The earlier cars had other ways of dealing with the changes to the front suspension geometry when you lower the car to race-car ride height, but in the 993s (and 964s) the GT2/EVO/RS uprights is the only way to restore proper geometry and get rid of the bump steer that will result otherwise.
At a minimum they should be allowed in prepared since they are less expensive of a change than, say, ring and pinion, LSD and adjustable shocks. Since cars in stock class also use race springs and run low ride heights as well, though (since stock isn't really "stock" anyway...none of the cars is driven to the track), it makes sense there as well the way the rules currently are.
When I was talking about how the rules need to be tailored more specifically to individual models, this is one of those modifications that falls into this category as it is specific to 964s and 993s.
Harry
At a minimum they should be allowed in prepared since they are less expensive of a change than, say, ring and pinion, LSD and adjustable shocks. Since cars in stock class also use race springs and run low ride heights as well, though (since stock isn't really "stock" anyway...none of the cars is driven to the track), it makes sense there as well the way the rules currently are.
When I was talking about how the rules need to be tailored more specifically to individual models, this is one of those modifications that falls into this category as it is specific to 964s and 993s.
Harry
#71
This certainly isn't true. I've seen a few cars that were driven to the track and by guys that do very well within their class. If not for missing airbags and a non-functioning horn, (and the fact that I like to camp at the track in my truck), I could drive my car to the track.
#73
I don't think a cage would make you fail inspection. Granted, it wouldn't be the best idea in the world to drive around on the street with a cage, but it could be done. Also, my cage is bolt-in, so if I needed to, I could have someone else bring the cage up to the track, and I could put it in there.
#74
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I don't think a cage would make you fail inspection. Granted, it wouldn't be the best idea in the world to drive around on the street with a cage, but it could be done. Also, my cage is bolt-in, so if I needed to, I could have someone else bring the cage up to the track, and I could put it in there.
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#75
If it were up to me, I'd allow carpeting to be removed. I'd allow camber plates. I'd allow passenger seats to be removed. And, even with these changes, I'd still have a car that is useable on the street.