interior going full race...some pics...
04-17-2009, 10:55 AM
#31
Mr. Excitement
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Not an expert in anything, just killing some time before a meeting so please take my rambling with a good shake of salt.
Good news on the tube size. Using NASA rule # 15.6.19 you can go up one tube size and go over the # of bends. It still not a lock as it has to be approved by a NASA scrut. For your 2800# target you would need to go up to 1.75- 1.20 wall from 1.75 -.095 or 1.50-1.20 wall
Staying with NASA rules I see NO work around in print for the missing diagonal. It is clearly spelled out. One way might be that NASA will grandfather in other groups already sanctioned cars but NASA also calls for the car to be brought into compliance within a reasonable time frame. Perhaps you could get a PCA log book first and see if you can slide in for a while at least.
Bends are also to be no less than 3X diamater with no deformation.
Speaking of bends. Total metal melter/bender/beater geek nitpick on NASA. The rules also call for “mandrel” bends and few if anyone one uses a true Mandrel bender on roll bar thickness tubing. The most common is the draw type that has a die and follower. I think NASA has the two confused. “Mandrel” benders have a ball shaped die on the end of a long rod that is held INSIDE the tube in the right place while the tube is being formed around a die. No inner mandrel = not a true “mandrel” bend. With that in mind 99.9% of cages are not to NASA spec.
Good news on the tube size. Using NASA rule # 15.6.19 you can go up one tube size and go over the # of bends. It still not a lock as it has to be approved by a NASA scrut. For your 2800# target you would need to go up to 1.75- 1.20 wall from 1.75 -.095 or 1.50-1.20 wall
Staying with NASA rules I see NO work around in print for the missing diagonal. It is clearly spelled out. One way might be that NASA will grandfather in other groups already sanctioned cars but NASA also calls for the car to be brought into compliance within a reasonable time frame. Perhaps you could get a PCA log book first and see if you can slide in for a while at least.
Bends are also to be no less than 3X diamater with no deformation.
Speaking of bends. Total metal melter/bender/beater geek nitpick on NASA. The rules also call for “mandrel” bends and few if anyone one uses a true Mandrel bender on roll bar thickness tubing. The most common is the draw type that has a die and follower. I think NASA has the two confused. “Mandrel” benders have a ball shaped die on the end of a long rod that is held INSIDE the tube in the right place while the tube is being formed around a die. No inner mandrel = not a true “mandrel” bend. With that in mind 99.9% of cages are not to NASA spec.
04-17-2009, 11:06 AM
#32
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Not an expert in anything, just killing some time before a meeting so please take my rambling with a good shake of salt.
Good news on the tube size. Using NASA rule # 15.6.19 you can go up one tube size and go over the # of bends. It still not a lock as it has to be approved by a NASA scrut. For your 2800# target you would need to go up to 1.75- 1.20 wall from 1.75 -.095 or 1.50-1.20 wall
Staying with NASA rules I see NO work around in print for the missing diagonal. It is clearly spelled out. One way might be that NASA will grandfather in other groups already sanctioned cars but NASA also calls for the car to be brought into compliance within a reasonable time frame. Perhaps you could get a PCA log book first and see if you can slide in for a while at least.
Bends are also to be no less than 3X diamater with no deformation.
Speaking of bends. Total metal melter/bender/beater geek nitpick on NASA. The rules also call for “mandrel” bends and few if anyone one uses a true Mandrel bender on roll bar thickness tubing. The most common is the draw type that has a die and follower. I think NASA has the two confused. “Mandrel” benders have a ball shaped die on the end of a long rod that is held INSIDE the tube in the right place while the tube is being formed around a die. No inner mandrel = not a true “mandrel” bend. With that in mind 99.9% of cages are not to NASA spec.
Good news on the tube size. Using NASA rule # 15.6.19 you can go up one tube size and go over the # of bends. It still not a lock as it has to be approved by a NASA scrut. For your 2800# target you would need to go up to 1.75- 1.20 wall from 1.75 -.095 or 1.50-1.20 wall
Staying with NASA rules I see NO work around in print for the missing diagonal. It is clearly spelled out. One way might be that NASA will grandfather in other groups already sanctioned cars but NASA also calls for the car to be brought into compliance within a reasonable time frame. Perhaps you could get a PCA log book first and see if you can slide in for a while at least.
Bends are also to be no less than 3X diamater with no deformation.
Speaking of bends. Total metal melter/bender/beater geek nitpick on NASA. The rules also call for “mandrel” bends and few if anyone one uses a true Mandrel bender on roll bar thickness tubing. The most common is the draw type that has a die and follower. I think NASA has the two confused. “Mandrel” benders have a ball shaped die on the end of a long rod that is held INSIDE the tube in the right place while the tube is being formed around a die. No inner mandrel = not a true “mandrel” bend. With that in mind 99.9% of cages are not to NASA spec.
kurt thank you sooooo much!!! the shop said "they interpreted the diagonal
wrong and will HAVE TO PUT ONE IN!!!!
thank you so much this saved my first race weekend!!
04-17-2009, 11:08 AM
#33
Instructor
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLean, VA
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Very nice!
Like others have said, look into the diagonal bar in both the main hoop and the roof. I also noticed that your side bars don't come out like mine. if you are gutting the door or getting a cup door, you should be able to angle the side bars to come out more also. The extra elbow room is definitely worth it.
Like others have said, look into the diagonal bar in both the main hoop and the roof. I also noticed that your side bars don't come out like mine. if you are gutting the door or getting a cup door, you should be able to angle the side bars to come out more also. The extra elbow room is definitely worth it.
04-17-2009, 11:09 AM
#34
Race Car
Hey Tom, that is really beautiful!
-can you ask if a scrutineer can come over and inspect the cage/build at vortex?
I'll bet someone from scca lives in your area, and maybe the pboc and/or nasa chief tech.
Normally these guys are more than happy to help you with a log book, away from the track... 'cause takes a few hours to inspect a new car, and they hate to do that on a race day...
-can you ask if a scrutineer can come over and inspect the cage/build at vortex?
I'll bet someone from scca lives in your area, and maybe the pboc and/or nasa chief tech.
Normally these guys are more than happy to help you with a log book, away from the track... 'cause takes a few hours to inspect a new car, and they hate to do that on a race day...
04-17-2009, 01:03 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Hey Tom, that is really beautiful!
-can you ask if a scrutineer can come over and inspect the cage/build at vortex?
I'll bet someone from scca lives in your area, and maybe the pboc and/or nasa chief tech.
Normally these guys are more than happy to help you with a log book, away from the track... 'cause takes a few hours to inspect a new car, and they hate to do that on a race day...
-can you ask if a scrutineer can come over and inspect the cage/build at vortex?
I'll bet someone from scca lives in your area, and maybe the pboc and/or nasa chief tech.
Normally these guys are more than happy to help you with a log book, away from the track... 'cause takes a few hours to inspect a new car, and they hate to do that on a race day...
as for the doors, dont have the cup car doors yet so couldnt do that.
04-17-2009, 03:01 PM
#36
Drifting
Good points on adding a diagonal or X in the roof. With a composite roof there isn't much protecting you against intrusion. My club actually makes people with composite roofs or sunroof inserts install a roof net or wear arm restraints to keep your limbs safe in case the roof breaks off or is damaged in a rollover.
04-17-2009, 03:38 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Good points on adding a diagonal or X in the roof. With a composite roof there isn't much protecting you against intrusion. My club actually makes people with composite roofs or sunroof inserts install a roof net or wear arm restraints to keep your limbs safe in case the roof breaks off or is damaged in a rollover.
04-17-2009, 06:38 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
Interesting project. Please don't sell yourself short even if you only have modest experience. I don't think it likely that Cups or RSRs inherently require more skill to drive at the limit than what you appear to be building. You seem to love the sport and your car, so power to you for going down an informed path of your own choosing!
As for the cage, I am not an expert. In our area, there are several experts with Porsche experience, that also understand the sanctioning body requirements. For example, Tony Collicchio at TC Design (www.tcdesignfab.com). My car builder's experience goes all the way back to the world championship 935 days...
Anyway, I am sure you are on a great path with your shop. If they have trouble connecting with local or regional NASA folks, I am pretty sure that they can connect back here to NASA in Norcal for guidance if necessary. The NASA people are careful and thoughtful in terms of rules and requirements. I am not a cage expert, and if I were I might not agree with everything they do, but I do believe that they go through a reasonable process for defining requirements.
One thing I have experienced recently in cage discussions is the increased importance of the seat/cage relationship. This has always been a sensitive area with numerous approaches taken successfully. The new variable is head and neck restraints. Specifically the HANS device (which I use). Others may be require similar considerations.
HANS require a specific angle range for the shoulder belts, and the horizontal cage structure to which these belts are typically attached determines that angle, along with the seat height, the height of the driver, and the location of the holes in the back of the seat. In my case, with a Recaro Pro Racer seat in a '75 911, pre-HANS, everything was fine. Once I started using HANS, my geometry was out of spec. In my case, I had so much compression that I could not breathe with the belts in appropriate tension.
My choices were to move my horizontal upward, add a second, higher horizontal, or lower my seat. I chose the latter which was a bit of a project.
One of my friends just bought a car like mine (same builder) that was caged back in the late 90's. He is much taller and larger than I, and installed a nice Sabelt seat. He has vast racing experience having won the longest endurance race in the world, and is a technical giant (you may meet him at a PCA tech session as he is heavily involved in these). Anyway, he started wearing a HANS in his new car with his new seat... and the NASA tech stewards informed him that his angle was not in HANS spec. He could not move his seat down, so he had a higher horizontal added. I am pretty sure he had this done by Tony in our area.
In any case, this consideration may already be known to you and/or your builder, but if not, there you have it.
As for the cage, I am not an expert. In our area, there are several experts with Porsche experience, that also understand the sanctioning body requirements. For example, Tony Collicchio at TC Design (www.tcdesignfab.com). My car builder's experience goes all the way back to the world championship 935 days...
Anyway, I am sure you are on a great path with your shop. If they have trouble connecting with local or regional NASA folks, I am pretty sure that they can connect back here to NASA in Norcal for guidance if necessary. The NASA people are careful and thoughtful in terms of rules and requirements. I am not a cage expert, and if I were I might not agree with everything they do, but I do believe that they go through a reasonable process for defining requirements.
One thing I have experienced recently in cage discussions is the increased importance of the seat/cage relationship. This has always been a sensitive area with numerous approaches taken successfully. The new variable is head and neck restraints. Specifically the HANS device (which I use). Others may be require similar considerations.
HANS require a specific angle range for the shoulder belts, and the horizontal cage structure to which these belts are typically attached determines that angle, along with the seat height, the height of the driver, and the location of the holes in the back of the seat. In my case, with a Recaro Pro Racer seat in a '75 911, pre-HANS, everything was fine. Once I started using HANS, my geometry was out of spec. In my case, I had so much compression that I could not breathe with the belts in appropriate tension.
My choices were to move my horizontal upward, add a second, higher horizontal, or lower my seat. I chose the latter which was a bit of a project.
One of my friends just bought a car like mine (same builder) that was caged back in the late 90's. He is much taller and larger than I, and installed a nice Sabelt seat. He has vast racing experience having won the longest endurance race in the world, and is a technical giant (you may meet him at a PCA tech session as he is heavily involved in these). Anyway, he started wearing a HANS in his new car with his new seat... and the NASA tech stewards informed him that his angle was not in HANS spec. He could not move his seat down, so he had a higher horizontal added. I am pretty sure he had this done by Tony in our area.
In any case, this consideration may already be known to you and/or your builder, but if not, there you have it.
Last edited by Mahler9th; 11-19-2009 at 11:47 AM.
04-17-2009, 07:19 PM
#39
Race Director
VERY nice...... One day I will strip my race car all the way down to find some extra spots too drop weight.....
Nice seat too....basically the same concept as the Racetech 4009 I run.....
Nice seat too....basically the same concept as the Racetech 4009 I run.....
04-17-2009, 07:34 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Interesting project. Please don't sell yourself short even if you only have modest experience. I don't think it likely that Cups or RSRs inherently require more skill to drive at the limit than what you appear to be building. You seem to love the sport and your car, so power to you for going down an informed path of your own choosing!
As for the cage, I am not an expert. In our area, there are several experts with Porsche experience, that also understand the sanctioning body requirements. For example, Tony Collicchio at TC Design (www.tcdesignfab.com). My car builder's experience goes all the way back to the world championship 935 days...
Anyway, I am sure you are on a great path with your shop. If they have trouble connecting with local or regional NASA folks, I am pretty sure that they can connect back here to NASA in Norcal for guidance if necessary. The NASA people are careful and thoughtful in terms of rules and requirements. I am not a cage expert, and if I were I might not agree with everything they do, but I do believe that they go through a reasonable process for defining requirements.
One thing I have experienced recently in cage discussions is the increased importance of the seat/cage relationship. This has always been a sensitive area with numerous approaches taken successfully. The new variable is head and neck restraints. Specifically the HANS device (which I use). Others may be require similar considerations.
HANS require a specific angle range for the shoulder belts, and the horizontal cage structure to which these belts are typically attached determines that angle along with the seat height, the height of the driver, and the location of the holes in the back of the seat. In my case, with a Recaro Pro Racer seat in a '75 911, pre-HANS, everything was fine. Once I started using HANS, my geometry was out of spec. In my case, I had so much compression that I could not breath with the belts in appropriate tension.
My choices were to move my horizontal upward, add a second, higher horizontal, or lower my seat. I chose the latter which was a bit of a project.
One of my friends just bought a car like mine (same builder) that was caged back in the late 90's. He is much taller and larger than I, and installed a nice Sabelt seat. He has vast racing experience having win the longest endurance race in the world, and is a technical giant (you may meet him at a PCA tech session ans he is heavily involved in these). Anyway, he started wearing a HANS in his new car with his new seat... and the NASA tech stewards informed him that his angle was not in HANS spec. He could not move his seat down, so he had a higher horizontal added. I am pretty sure he had this done by Tony in our area.
In any case, this consideration may already be known to you and/or your builder, but if not, there you have it.
As for the cage, I am not an expert. In our area, there are several experts with Porsche experience, that also understand the sanctioning body requirements. For example, Tony Collicchio at TC Design (www.tcdesignfab.com). My car builder's experience goes all the way back to the world championship 935 days...
Anyway, I am sure you are on a great path with your shop. If they have trouble connecting with local or regional NASA folks, I am pretty sure that they can connect back here to NASA in Norcal for guidance if necessary. The NASA people are careful and thoughtful in terms of rules and requirements. I am not a cage expert, and if I were I might not agree with everything they do, but I do believe that they go through a reasonable process for defining requirements.
One thing I have experienced recently in cage discussions is the increased importance of the seat/cage relationship. This has always been a sensitive area with numerous approaches taken successfully. The new variable is head and neck restraints. Specifically the HANS device (which I use). Others may be require similar considerations.
HANS require a specific angle range for the shoulder belts, and the horizontal cage structure to which these belts are typically attached determines that angle along with the seat height, the height of the driver, and the location of the holes in the back of the seat. In my case, with a Recaro Pro Racer seat in a '75 911, pre-HANS, everything was fine. Once I started using HANS, my geometry was out of spec. In my case, I had so much compression that I could not breath with the belts in appropriate tension.
My choices were to move my horizontal upward, add a second, higher horizontal, or lower my seat. I chose the latter which was a bit of a project.
One of my friends just bought a car like mine (same builder) that was caged back in the late 90's. He is much taller and larger than I, and installed a nice Sabelt seat. He has vast racing experience having win the longest endurance race in the world, and is a technical giant (you may meet him at a PCA tech session ans he is heavily involved in these). Anyway, he started wearing a HANS in his new car with his new seat... and the NASA tech stewards informed him that his angle was not in HANS spec. He could not move his seat down, so he had a higher horizontal added. I am pretty sure he had this done by Tony in our area.
In any case, this consideration may already be known to you and/or your builder, but if not, there you have it.
thanks
and you as well Iceman!
04-17-2009, 08:01 PM
#41
Three Wheelin'
You are welcome. Not to put too fine a point on it, but since you are a medical doctor...
In my case, my first HANS use was at Fernley in June of 2006. three day weekend, high of 102-108 each day. No amenities except portable toilets and a garden hose for a cool off shower. Strapped in for practice on Friday and by the start of the second lap, I could not achieve full inhalation. Knew it was not an MI, but it did get my attention. Lots of compression!
Had to slow down, loosen the shoulder belts and come in. No more HANS that weekend. Others I have seen with different body size and shape and different geometries, and in different (and more normal) ambient conditions, have not reported any physical issues, although they are clearly far away from HANS specs. So they just don't know it.
Actual HANS specs are a distance as opposed to an angle, and in my second example in the previous post, he was at 8 inches, and they spec 2 inches.
I spoke to Joe Marko at HMS about this and he described a weld-on bracket that could be added to a horizontal to raise the shoulder belt attachment point appropriately to conform to HANS specs. Not sure if this ever became a product. It was conceived, I believe, by some pros in NASCAR. As I said, in my case, lowering the seat (about 1.5 inches!) was the solution.
In my case, my first HANS use was at Fernley in June of 2006. three day weekend, high of 102-108 each day. No amenities except portable toilets and a garden hose for a cool off shower. Strapped in for practice on Friday and by the start of the second lap, I could not achieve full inhalation. Knew it was not an MI, but it did get my attention. Lots of compression!
Had to slow down, loosen the shoulder belts and come in. No more HANS that weekend. Others I have seen with different body size and shape and different geometries, and in different (and more normal) ambient conditions, have not reported any physical issues, although they are clearly far away from HANS specs. So they just don't know it.
Actual HANS specs are a distance as opposed to an angle, and in my second example in the previous post, he was at 8 inches, and they spec 2 inches.
I spoke to Joe Marko at HMS about this and he described a weld-on bracket that could be added to a horizontal to raise the shoulder belt attachment point appropriately to conform to HANS specs. Not sure if this ever became a product. It was conceived, I believe, by some pros in NASCAR. As I said, in my case, lowering the seat (about 1.5 inches!) was the solution.
04-18-2009, 12:34 AM
#42
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
You are welcome. Not to put too fine a point on it, but since you are a medical doctor...
In my case, my first HANS use was at Fernley in June of 2006. three day weekend, high of 102-108 each day. No amenities except portable toilets and a garden hose for a cool off shower. Strapped in for practice on Friday and by the start of the second lap, I could not achieve full inhalation. Knew it was not an MI, but it did get my attention. Lots of compression!
Had to slow down, loosen the shoulder belts and come in. No more HANS that weekend. Others I have seen with different body size and shape and different geometries, and in different (and more normal) ambient conditions, have not reported any physical issues, although they are clearly far away from HANS specs. So they just don't know it.
Actual HANS specs are a distance as opposed to an angle, and in my second example in the previous post, he was at 8 inches, and they spec 2 inches.
I spoke to Joe Marko at HMS about this and he described a weld-on bracket that could be added to a horizontal to raise the shoulder belt attachment point appropriately to conform to HANS specs. Not sure if this ever became a product. It was conceived, I believe, by some pros in NASCAR. As I said, in my case, lowering the seat (about 1.5 inches!) was the solution.
In my case, my first HANS use was at Fernley in June of 2006. three day weekend, high of 102-108 each day. No amenities except portable toilets and a garden hose for a cool off shower. Strapped in for practice on Friday and by the start of the second lap, I could not achieve full inhalation. Knew it was not an MI, but it did get my attention. Lots of compression!
Had to slow down, loosen the shoulder belts and come in. No more HANS that weekend. Others I have seen with different body size and shape and different geometries, and in different (and more normal) ambient conditions, have not reported any physical issues, although they are clearly far away from HANS specs. So they just don't know it.
Actual HANS specs are a distance as opposed to an angle, and in my second example in the previous post, he was at 8 inches, and they spec 2 inches.
I spoke to Joe Marko at HMS about this and he described a weld-on bracket that could be added to a horizontal to raise the shoulder belt attachment point appropriately to conform to HANS specs. Not sure if this ever became a product. It was conceived, I believe, by some pros in NASCAR. As I said, in my case, lowering the seat (about 1.5 inches!) was the solution.
thanks again for your time. we placed the rear cross bar after me and the seat were in to make sure it was right
04-19-2009, 04:57 PM
#43
Mr. Excitement
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
05-04-2009, 10:37 PM
#45
Drifting
KICK ***!!!
Love the Yellow & Carbon Fiber
Love the Yellow & Carbon Fiber