Circuit Motorsports

You're missing the point. It's on their website. That's all we're saying. We're not saying it's the right thing.

I consider the website on the same level as the owner's documentation.

http://hansdevice.com/s.nl/sc.5/category.22/.f

Paul 996

This is great discussion and also a very serious topic for all instructors that frequently ride in students cars with factory 3pt seat belts.

I understand that the R3 Rage, Hybrid Rage, Hybrid X, Hutchens Hybrid, D-cell device and Hutchens Device are designed for that purpose.

Also the Defnder Team Issue device is planning to release an upgrade that adapts their system to 3pt use. (per their website).

ltc

From an engineering and legal point of view, I do not. It is an open ended statement with no company backing.

Your statement is interesting.....you state that H&D would put something on their website that you say is not the right thing. Why would they possibly put something on their website, in a legally open ended manner, that they knew to be technically incorrect?
Could it be they don't want to lose market share to a wearable device like the R3? Could it be driven from the business/marketing concerns of the company?

It is no different than H&D stating that use of the HANS device has been shown, based on anecdotal information, to help reduce the risk of cancer in men.

If the device has been designed and tested for use with 3 point harnesses then the information should be stated/updated.

Again, nothing against H&D, it's just my nature/education...I am trained to find mistakes/errors and ignore anything that is correct.

ltc

Interesting and well worded statement:

Do some shoulder belts slip off the HANS Device?

# No. Properly mounted belts do not slip off the device.
# If your shoulder belts will not stay securely on the device chances are that you do not have the belt mounts properly located in your chassis. For more information see the Quick Start Guide section on shoulder belt mounting go here and scroll down to Quick Start Guide.
# The HANS Device actually maximizes belt performance by spreading the belts around your neck, allowing the belts to be mounted as close together as possible for best performance. In over 3600 crashes involving HANS Device use as inspected by NASCAR there was not even one concern about belt retention or slippage.

Note the lack of reference to an off axis impact
Note the use of the 3600 NA$CAR crashes (somewhat surprised by the number actually), yet no mention of other sanctioning bodies.
I am fairly sure that the HANS was not under the belts in Robert Kubica's post impact photographs.
I am fairly sure that there have been documented reports of the HANS coming out from under the belts in off axis sled tests.

gbaker

http://www.racingsafetyinstitute.org/HANS%20device.html

Interestingly, this simulates a 3-point belt set up.

Circuit Motorsports

Lewis-

For starters:

The first time someone pointed that out was after hbennett (Howard Bennett of HANS) had made a comment that the HANS was not suitable for 3 pt. use.


As for the statement

Engineering wise--it doesn't matter what we/they think engineering wise. It's on their website.

Legal wise-- I'd bet good money that a lawyer would disagree with you on that part.

It's on their website. It's company backed. Period. No different than any other information that comes with the device or they publish online.

ew928

So how does this puppy work in a frontal impact?




3 point belts lock after the body has traveled/pivoted forward, no?
So the R3 contraption is no longer pinned to the seat and relies on the chest strap and the 2 shoulder harnesses to keep it attached to the upper torso.
What happens to the lower vertebrae of the spine, the ones just under where the R3 ends.
Do they now get more concentrated forward and twisting forces. (A 3 point harness imparts a twist to the upper body as it goes forward?)

Just curious.
Do helmeted driver/passengers with 3 point factory harness ever have problem with basal skull fracture?

ltc

Wouldn't it be funny if somebody here were both and engineer and an attorney?

Without downloading the latest HANS documentation, I am going to say that given that "HANS device" and a "3 point", and "anecdotal", are on their website in the same paragraph, does NOT mean it is an approved configuration.

But, there is a simpler way.
Simply ask, in writing, H&D the question:
"Is a 3 point harness an approved configuration with a HANS device?"
See what they say.

Or better yet, sell one to one of your customers telling them, in writing, that since HANS device, 3 point and anecdotal information is on the HANS device public website, it is an approved configuration.

I'm guessing I already know the answer, but let me know what they say.

230ERACER

Hey Lewis lighten up, everybody has an opinion and sometimes they might not agree with you.

Circuit Motorsports

You are still completely missing the point. I'm not arguing if it's a good/bad way to use a HANS.

It IS on their website.

That's the point. An email from them is no different than a bullet point on a website. They've said, that anecdotally the 3pt. system works with a HANS.

I'm not reading into it at all. I'm just saying, "that what they say"

Mike Buck

so the website says it "offers benefits" and Lewis turns that into "approved configuration" lol, why am i not surprised

truly reading between the lines

hans recommends a 5/6 or whatever point setup (duh!), but they won't deny that even with just a 3pt belt it will help some. why can't you see that is all they are saying and nothing more?

230ERACER

Can't show ***** anymore too, go figure.

kurt M

One thing I see over and over is that people keep bringing up the R3 and 3 point systems. Is there any test data on the R3 and 3 point systems? Are people just extrapolating that it offers added protection? Does it? Does the 3 point system with its reduced and different upper body retention even necessitate the use of a H&N system?(My pure guess it is would not likely hurt to use it but I also bet it does far less used in a 3 than a full 5 point system) Does the lack of firm upper body foundation and retention under the belts negate the effect of the R3? Is it reduced to an easy exit reducer without good upper body control via dual shoulder belts?
The DefeNder gets kicked for not having openly published data but the R3 seems to get a free pass on its most commonly voiced and used purchase decision points. “I can use it with my student’s 3 point system”

Why do folks knock NASCAR’s safety systems? It went from the back of the pack safety wise to just about the front. Road racing still indorses flexible base mount only spill you out seats even in pro racing venues. I know, lets add some little plastic wings to help retain the 200 pound guy during a 60 G event.

kurt M

I miss 38D. His avatar was an institution around here.

He was a smart guy with good things to say too.

230ERACER

Amen....that is exactly how I feel too Kurt, Colin was one of the best commentators this site ever had. Little sad that we had to lose him over a bunch of "polically correct bull.....", which by the way I am proud to say I am not "polically correct" very often.

Come back 38DDD