mooty

watched the video.

T5: f430 didn't see the camera car and shut door on him.
T14, passing on outside.

this is not a race. he does that to me in DE, i WILL take out out.

mooty

just drive the radical.
it's so much fun, even just watching it pull away from me like i am standing still.

race911

We looking at two different things? The poster of the video's own admission in the comments about T5: "In which I almost picked up a new hood ornament. I was watching Marc do his stuff and literally forgot to brake!"

Re T14: The NSX is track right and has pulled back behind him before there are any brake lights. Looks like a legit (albeit borderline late for a DE) pass.

race911

Giving rides are about all the pace I care to run in a DE day. Private day, PDC, test day, yeah it's nice to turn the wick up to what I'm capable of doing. But I'm not in shape anymore to lay down more than 3 or 4 laps at a time at a qualifying pace.

mooty

no, we saw the same video.

in a race, i would not say anything. i might even say he's got some ballsy moves.

but in DE, if i were in ferrari, i would see the car at the apex of T5. i wouldn't trust him (the camera car), i would hold outside line and make sure we both clear. b/c it doesn't matter who's at fault i dont want my 250k car be the ornament of the camera car. arguing in the paddock after my $250k car gets t-boned is pointless. it's DONE.

T14, again, unless the nsx come to a standing still, i will not pass him on outside b/c i dont trust the NSX. now if YOU were in nsx and i know you got the ability to keep the car inside, i would get by you no problem. if joe schmoe is on the inside, i have no clue if he would drift out and take me out. and being in a F430, i would blow by nxs in no time once i straighten out after 15, why take ANY chances? it's DE and it's a $250k + car.

mooty

LOL, ok, so that means i should try to catch you afte lap 6

mark kibort

Lets get out to t-hill at the end of the month and we will shave some time off the old widow.
When is that NCRA day?

Good advice so far, but there are a few limits of the car that many of the posters cant relate to unitl they drive a 928. since your car is soft in the rear with big tires, throttle oversteer is almost non existant in the higher speed turns. Only usefull from a rear grip perspective, coming out of slower turns and planting the rear end coming out of high speed turns like turn 8

I hit turn 8 at 100mph and my lap times are in the 2:00 range now, was 2:01 range with the car identical to yours. Ill watch the video again and see if anything obvious sticks out. 2:09 is good, it means you got the rythm of the track. Now, its deeper and harder braking, faster cornering speeds, set up by trail braking, and getting on the throttle earlier.

In this mock race with Mooty and crew, you can see that not much throttle was on the first lap, to get the rear cam video.
still a short shifting easy 2:05

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGqSJkmCyb0

mk

Veloce Raptor

And some of us HAVE driven 928's on track, Mark, which is why our advice is spot on.







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

mark kibort

You made similar comments about my turn ins at turn 3 at laguna. Your advice was to let the wheel uncoil faster, but that would result in an off track experience. the car has a natural push and throttle application just makes it worse. Ive tried to go in slower, more trail braking and that seems to help, but the way most 928s handle, creates a limit through that turn that other cars dont seem to have. In driving a BMW around that same turn, i use half the steering input to make the turn and the rear end rotates effortlessly.

In otherwords, there are somethings about the 928 you need to drive around or try and tune around. right now, you have asked nothing of his set up. a ver soft rear suspension, fairly stiff front suspension, can create all sorts of handling characteristics. I wont know what he really has until I drive it. I can see a little from the video, but a 2:10 is not quite fast enough to find its limits in any area.

mk

Veloce Raptor

No, I did not, Mark. Perhaps you need a refresher course in Reading Comprehension.

What I said was to turn in more crisply, thus enabling you to begin unwinding lock SOONER (not quicker). This is because you were also adding lock at the apex of a lot of corners, just like the OP in this thread.

I also noted the inherent understeer in 928's, and pointed out that, because of this and the car's relatively hefty weight, you needed to focus on its strengths (straightaway speed) and minimize its weaknesses (mid corner velocity). the best way to do that is to get most of your rotation done early and spend the rest of the corner unwinding lock (thus unbinding the front end & lengthening the straightaway).

Again, I have never suggested unwinding faster. I have only suggested beginning to unwind sooner.

Big difference. Sorry this was lost on you.







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

mark kibort

Good advice here. Mike and I have quite a few race laps here and what he is saying is true. you cant just take all the advice in and think you will drop to a 2:02, as you know. But, it will help in getting you more comfortable around the track as you start to approach the limits. turns like 1, and Mike's advice at turn 2, of a double apex. Heck, we have talked about the trail brake, early apex (or double apex) of 2 a bunch of times. It works and saves a bunch of time.

the push around 2 cant be fought with more throttle . the rear grippy 928 wont show any over steer until you start on the exit of turn 2. there is pays to have a good feel of how far you can push it to accelerate best out of turn 2. the rest is just feeel. not getting on the brakes too early, using the turns to slow the car down as well (more trail braking). Mike is also right about turn 7. you should be flat out, no question. You have to think about this at turn6 that you are really hustling! the approach to 8 has to be full throttle with a lift and brake take to set the nose and immediately back on the gas. what this does is allow you to trust the car that it will drift slightly and have more rear grip due ot being on the gas . without the gas, like in a mis shift, can make that turn dicy. If that is the feel, that if you were not on the gas around turn8, you are hitting it right. anywhere around 100mph for your car the way it is set up would be good and yeild around a 2:04ish time. I can almost predict my times by how fast and what time I hit turn 8.

I actually thought you hit turn 9 well, just need to brake later and harder with some trail brake as well, and get on the gas early as MIke says. 10-11-12 are ok , and thats just tossing the car around a little faster. sacraficing the slow lines so that you have the car pointed straight for better acceleraton down the straight is key too. later braking into 13 with a trail brake will help rotate the car and hang on for 14 which I thought you did well.

You are getting comfortable. and thats most important right now. It almost takes a lead follow to trust the car can do what you know it can do. I remember Anderson taking me lead follow around Willow and his words of, "Trust the car, it can do it! " helped knock a bunch of time off where I thought I was near the liimit.
over the season, you will be fine tuning you skills and will be running quick by the end of the summer.

I hope we can get together at the end of april to take some rides in both of our cars.

mk

mark kibort

my comment is around turn 2, where the 928s Ive drive, and thats 6 of them set up for racing, all would push around the turn,and all throttle does is make the push worse , however, just after apex as you are able to let the wheel unwind, the rear end can be come active and help accelerate and hold the line on the exit. All agree, he is scrubbing off speed right now, but most of that is just due to getting comfortable with the car and driving a fairly conservative pace.

mark kibort

Thats what i ment. we are on the same page there. sooner! yes, I agree.

now, "adding Lock" you mean steering input?? and yes, just unwinding earlier would cause an off track experience there. However, If i could get the car rotated earlier as you say, by going slower into the turn and gettign on the gas earlier, this might be possible. Im always testing new ways to go through that turn. Plus, tire quality and track conditions are always changing. My goal is to make the trade offs so that my times dont suffer.

I think you are spot on in doing the majority of the turn in SOONER, as it gets the car pointed in the right direction, giving up reliance on the pushy cornering abilities. if the turn is fast, the 928 has a better time then most through them, but if its a slower turn, this becomes more of a critical point to get the car turned and rotated earlier. trial braking and very hard braking approaches help give some turn in bit. Now, with my turn-ins at laguna, either my entrance speed could be a little fast , but the limit of the cars ability to turn it is a problem with front grip. 2 years ago, the new rear wing made this problem even worse. the car just doesnt want to turn in on 50mph 90degree turns. 40s, yes, 60-70+ yes, but turns like turn 3 at laguna, the car just doesnt like.
(and ive tried to go through it in testing a bunch of different ways). It loves 100mph turns like turn 8 at thunderhill, and can keep pace with a lot of faster cars in those areas. Again, like I said, night and day difference between taking a BMW e36 race car through those tigher turns like turn 3 laguna, at the same speeds.


see 1:22 on this video . If you notice, i trail brake into the turn, set the direction and hang on while applying power on the exit. any sooner release would result in running off track. However, I could slow sooner on the approach to get more initial rotation. But those are trade offs.

http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?swf...j0Zv80iC&cr=US
Anyway, back to Brian's car.

mk

Veloce Raptor

I understand. However, in the video you just linked, you again are still adding lock at apex. Ideally, your initial turn in would be much more authoritative and crisp, especially with a car with prodigious understeer. You will end up using a bit more apex curb there, but instead of adding lock at apex, you'll be gently beginning to unwind lock. See the difference?

Also, I have never driven an E36 M3 at Laguna. I have raced an E46 330i there, and driven a 550 Maranello (talk about a heavy boat that understeers like a Caterpillar tractor...), a 996 Carrera, and a Buick LeSabre rental car there.







Professional Racing and Driving Coach

mark kibort

absolutely! yes, I do agree with you . the turn in cant be crisper, because Im coming into the turn pretty hot and just cant get the front wheels to bit and turn in. again, with a BMW its night and day difference. You can turn in as hard as you want and the back end will come around if you like. in that turn, in order to keep up pace, i need to bake it, and do what i can to sacrafice as little of that cornering speed as possible. I have tried to go slower. sure, i get amazing turn in, and i can get on the gas earlier too but Ill have less exit speed and could sacrafice a position. Its hard to describe on the list, but its one of the few turns in racing where my car just stinks! That is a 1:38.high at laguna with 3000lbs and 306rwhp so im not lally gagging it. all other turns I can deal with, but this is the one where i loose most ground on turn in, and exit. I have more bite up front now, so this shouldnt be as bad this season bigger tires up front and bigger brakes as well. I know what you are saying and agree. also, nipping the apexs at laguna isnt as fruitful as it used to be there. they are really big and deep now and tend to upset the car. as a note, there are some days where the grip is so good, that i can turn in well, with little oversteer and nip that apex and let that wheel unwind out early, but the track has to be real grippy for me to do it. I bet all things would be different with a set of new R6s up front!

I think what you are talking about, the car (and me) can actually do at 2:22 of the video

http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?swf...j0Zv80iC&cr=US

going into the next two turns. (4 and 5). The idea is to be able to do this on all turns. I sacrafice the cars set up to do it at the faster turns, because there is more time to be saved there , instead of making the turn in better there and lose some of the capabilities on the faster turns. trade offs I guess.

mk