DWalker

Im not sure what your trying to say, my EVO doesnt understeer much at all when set up for the track- it does in stock trim but the ALL OEM cars are purposefully set up that way so that soccer moms and dads are less likely to kill themselves. Its harder obviously to get a STI to stop being an understeering pig, but with a bit of work it can be done. EVO 8's like mine are rear-biased from the factory (no ACD/AYC) and in extreme power or under reduced traction will power oversteer impressively. The difference is that with the front wheels still pulling (albeit much less) the car tends to straighten itself out. Im not sure (because I dont care enough to know) how the GTR's electronics work, but it is easily on my top 5 list of cars I dont care about until there is a solid and proven way to defeat the electronics without rebuilding the entire car
Obviously, 99% of the "tuner" crowd playing with these things suck and have no idea how to set up a car, no idea about shock settings other than "stiff" and their idea of a performance alignment is lowering the car and throwing a bunch of negative camber at it, but give the car to someone who knows what they are doing and its a whole different animal.

333pg333

Why does one magazine's review makes it a certainty in favour of the GT2 vs countless others that disagree? Anyway that wasn't my point. I too want the GT2 to be faster and it may well be but the GTR35 isn't the only 4wd vehicle out there. If a well tuned EVO or STI or whatever, can work to the driver's advantage due to the 4wd then why wouldn't Porsche have tried themselves in a more competitive vehicle? I know they dallied with the 959 and it was successful, but that was some time ago. Surely they could come up with something superior now? Or is it just that their marketing dept feels that the prevailing attitude of most rear engined guys is 4wd is for ninnys?
I love my car and love going to the track in it. I can't help thinking however when I'm feathering the throttle due to lack of grip when I can see these 4wd guys powering on, that I am at their mercy.

Larry Herman

Now you are changing the topic to whole 'nother subject. If you seem to be having that problem, then I would suggest a harder look at your car setup, or your driving style. I have found that most AWD guys are jealous of how early 911 hot shoes can put down the power and drift the car hard all the way out of the turn, while they are grinding their way to trackout. Our 951 comes off of the corner pretty hard too.

Then again, it is not apples 2 apples to compare an AWD 911 to any front-engined AWD. 911s, regardless of drive train, need to corner under power. It is the weight shift onto the rear wheels that maintains the grip and allows for some serious exit speeds. AWD 911s need that too, but the additional load on the front tires causes them to understeer and that slows them off of the corner as compared to a RWD 911.

333pg333

I guess the 'topic' is open ended here. It started with me seeing just how quick some of these guys and their cars are and being envious of a perceived advantage they have in handling. It's pretty subjective I grant you, but even going in a friends EVO you could just feel it wanted to turn corners. That was just as a passenger on the road, but that was the underlying feeling I got. He has more or less verified that when using it on the track. He also owns a 951 and 968 so again, this is not a brand biased view. I have also marvelled at how the rear engined cars just kick out of certain corners as if propelled by a massive slingshot. Having the motor hanging off the back is not always a disadvantage.
As for my car, it's setup and my driving. Well sure there's always room for improvement. I have good brakes, suspension, tyres, approx 300whp. I'm confidant that I have some ability and commitment.
Here's a case in point. One on one with a 996tt 4wd. He has the advantage of traction, grip, power over me. I have weight and track experience over him. He gets out of shape quite a few times and the 4wd really seems to help him. Now you would say that I'm agreeing with some of the previous points made on this thread, and I am, but take that further. In the hands of a better driver he should have beaten me and that would be due to the 4wd, not in spite of.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JygHyzK4ZKc
The question of front engined 4wd vs rear is a good one, and not something I considered when making this thread. I don't know enough to comment properly.

JET951

they do have a choice, there are many kits which offer just RWD, we have a few company's here is Sydney that have done the conversion. MRT have done quite a few on the WRX, it does not make them faster.

[QUOTE=Potomac-Greg;6450034]
AWD only makes a difference when putting down power. Braking or coasting through a turn, they're just a drag (literally). In situations where RWD would have difficulty putting down power (wet, VIR Oak Tree), AWD will have a momentary advantage (all other things being equal).
[QUOTE]
yes and no, the benefit of AWD is very evident coming out of corners, where i will be having a little trouble coming out of a corner, when rear wheels start to loose their traction and the rear end will start to go sideways instead of forward, the AWD cars will pull with the front wheels. this may only be a momentary advantage but when there are 12 corners on one track those momentary advantages add up. in the wet it is almost impossible to catch AWD cars at the tracks we drive on.

so from what your saying, the 911 is a bad choice of track car? i completely agree that to drive a 911 on its limit your going to be one hell of a driver. put that same driver in an equivalent AWD HP suspension setup car, in my mind it should be quicker. the later AWD cars such as the 34-35 GTR are quite heavy, but the earlier ones are still quite light. a MY00 wrx i work on weighs in at just 1120kg, which in my mind is light compared with the later model AWD cars.

that video shows a well setup GTR, it may be more forgiving, in my book that is what you want. having a vehicle that is harder to drive will not not prove to be faster in the end.

i think that the real problem with the speed of our cars is not Power or its layout configuration. its weight. here we all are tracking very heavy expensive vehicles. if we were to 1/4 the weight, power is not then in the equation. you will have less problems getting power to the ground, whether its Front/Rear or AWD it becomes less of a problem. faster in and out of corners.

i would go and get myself a Van Diemen or Radical if lap times were my priority
http://tinyurl.com/dnca7g

Bull

Of course, almost anything can be done in the after-market, given enough money is thrown at the problem. I was referring to not having a choice with a factory car.

Interesting that after-market kits have been developed and offered, and some people are spending the money to eliminate the AWD.

earlyapex

Keeping things in perspective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hskT...eature=related

JET951

WRT offer the kit for drifting. AWD has a little too much traction for drifting, unless you have a lot of hp. their race cars all retain AWD. that said the WRX usually cannot compete with the EVO. the EVO 9 seems like the perfect platform in its hp/weight range. its killed targa tasmania a few times. in the end it will come down to how much money is spent on the car and how good the driver is

Bull

Yep, always has.

Larry Herman

No, it's not a bad choice at all, just a tougher platform to learn on and master. The 911 does have some fantasic abilities, but IMHO it takes more talent to extract that performance.

JET951

all of our cars have fantastic abilities, but that is my point. its a hard car to drive. the same talented driver in an easier car(same weight and power) should be faster. why do we continue to be loyal to a particular brand of car or vehicle? when we can go out buy a car for 1/4 of the price and be 15 seconds quicker on a 2 minute circuit.? i think we are all nuts!

Matias_S

My opinion, up for debate; AWD cars ARE faster than 2WD cars in racing. In [old] DTM, BTCC, SCCA Speed World GT Challenge etc, the 4WD cars have dominated until rules have been changed to reel them in or ban them.

Looking forward to your opinions.

A car here is defined as a touring or rally car, more or less based on a production saloon vehicle.

Larry Herman

We are all nuts. I have owned sports cars since I was 18, and though they have all been exciting and lots of fun nothing grabbed me like the first Porsche that I owned, a 914. To me, there is just something about having that motor behind you; the sound, the dynamics of the car - something that just gets me. And for me that's what it is all about.

stownsen914

I'm not so sure ... granted it's not an apples to apples comparison, but when Audi took their Quattros to the Trans-Am pro series around 1990 or so, they made fools of the more powerful American iron. Hans Stuck used to say that the main reason the Quattros won was that with the 4WD he could put the car pretty much anywhere on the track and simply drive around the competition. Note that SCCA subsequently legislated the Audis out of Trans-Am after a couple seasons of this. 150 lbs might be worth taking on to get 4WD.

Scott

Todsimpson

How much more powerful were the V8's?

4 valve, turbo 5 cylinders make lots of HP.