Depends on the track, the conditions, and the driver.

I could easily pick a combination of those elements that would favour either car.

That's why all the big F1 teams do the simulation work that they do, to find a best COMPROMISE in their setup (gearing, suspension, etc) that will hopefully win the race.

And for ****s and giggles we could also talk about how various differential setups are affected (both good and bad) by torque and their effect on drivability. Same HP/TQ, same gearing, but different results.

 

If it is really easy, then let's do this. I contend that both sets of cars have a clear winner in all conditions.

To your last point, "torque". Are you talking about engine torque values or rear wheel torque values? Lets have some giggles. what types of changes would be effected by "torque".

m

 

So, if two people post on the same subject, one must simply be "yesing" what the other said? You must live in a very simplistic world. Not very realistic, but very simplistic.

Run Forrest Run! Or are you mimicking the Energizer Bunny?

 

You just either can't get it, or refuse to get it! Run Forrest Run!

 

BINGO!

BTW Mark, you seem to assume if no replies are forthcoming, then no others understand your game. If you take your ball and glove to a baseball field, and no others follow to play baseball, do you assume you are the only one who knows how to play the game? Or, could there be another reason you are standing there alone, pounding your ball into your glove, so to speak?

 

Correct. Plus, in his apples/oranges "examples", the cars are vastly different in weight & handling characteristics. Whereas De's original question was (IIRC) the same car, same 400hp, different torque.

TornadoBoy continues to flop frantically on the floor like a fish that got out of the bucket.

 

[QUOTE=Veloce Raptor;6268428}...I believe you will find that I--and all of the clients/students I am fortunate to coach--are amply aware of TQ and HP, and where each is to be exploited for faster lap times...:[/QUOTE]

VR,
Hp and Torque are not seperate things as your words try to make them. They are in fact the same thing with a engine speed seperating them. HP is torque times engine speed. So the more torque you have the more hp you have an any engine speed. Also the more engine speed the more hp you have.

The thing that you feel is "Torque" is merely HP at lower RPMs. Most "high hp" motors produce power high RPM and less hp at lower RPM. Most "Big torque" motors produce lots of low RPM HP and there is less of an increase in HP from 4000 RPM to 6000 RPM. Thus they give appearance of thrust at low speed an d lower top end. However it is still all about hp. All good professional drivers understand the power curve of their race cars and attempt to drive in such a way as to use that curve to produce the lowest lap times.

 

VR,
Without knowing at a very least the shape of the HP curve you can't answer that and you know it. Even with the shape of the curve you will want to know about gearing and track layout before you can "pick" a winner.

 

Joe, you are arguing how many angels are on the head of a pin here. the RESULTS--irrespective of whose nomenclature you use--are the same. And that was precisely my argument.

 

Des' original query also included RPM's, and that is a decent amount of additional info. In addition, my initial response to Des indicated some selectivity regarding tracks. So I believe you and I are actually on the same page here.

 

VR to a certain extent we are arguing semantics. However the thing I have learned is that HP is really the best way to settle these arguments. Big torque motors have aways had an apperent edge due to sounds and the big number they can generate. Peaky high hp motors always seem at a disadvantage in racing.

However I tend to beleve the value of torque clouds the issue. Especially when saying my motor makes 350 hp and 200ft-lbs of torque vs my competitor at 350 hp and 350 ft-lbs of torque. Conventional wisdom says the the 350/350 car will kill the 350/200 car. Well that is not always the case since the driving factor is not peak numbers or even the RPM at which the occur, but the shape of the hp curve. The torque curve is irrelevant since if you know HP at all engine speeds the torque curve is built in. Basicly give my a hp vs RPM plot and I can generate a 100% accurate torque curve.

So getting back to 350hp/200ft-lbs vs 350hp/350ft-lbs most people would grap the 350/350 motor and go away thinking they are the bomb. Well I believe you are smart enough to that while 350 ft-lbs is great show me the hp curves before to you would select either motor for your race car. Now in most cases the 350 ft-lbs car will have a wider hp curve, but that may not be the case.


One thing that gets me is when Honda guys complain about their little 1.6, 1.8 or 2.0L motors making no torque. Well sure they don't, but unlike most street car based motors you can spin them to 9k. So your real operating band is 6k to 9k as compared to most cars 4k to 6k. So despite having 135 ft-lbs of torque you can make that level with the engine spinning so fast that you still have decient power. As for getting out of a corner withone the issue is simple. Never let the rev's drop.

So while we are talking semantics to an extent the more racers understand what really drives them the better they can set about optimizing their race car and also optimizing their use of their car's existing power band on the race track.

 

Mark with respect too the 200 hp 911 vs 200 hp 928.

It is a tough issue. The reason being that most motors used in race cars keep making hp to redline. Some wil drop off a bit, but very few drop off as much as the 928 motor. Even so the 928 has some clear advantages at certain speeds. Exiting some slow corners if both chassis have the same weight it will kill the 911. However once down the straight the 911 will start to catch up. So it is really a tough problem to balance these cars. The real issue with the 928 for GTS IMHO is to figure how to improve the breathing to reduce the loss of torque at engine RPM's increase. The inablity for the motor to develop torque at high RPM really hurts it. In fact GTS is right in appling a penaly to the 928 motor over the 911 motor. The reason is that since the rules are so loose a good engine builder will work to improve high RPM breathing of the 928 motor to add more torque up high. If done well he should be able to increase high RPM hp thus minimizing the drop off. Now since the rules are only a peak hp and peak torque he can increase power at 6000 RPM and still be below peak. Thus earning a "free" power gain. The 911 motor builder can try to boost low end power, but simple laws of engine build mean that 3.2L of displacement will never produce as much torque as 5.0L if you can optimize both. So the most valueable gains in the 911 motor will occur such that its peak hp number will change and as such it will take a hit in power/weight.

 

Then you've never raced Mission in the rain.

http://www.sccbc.net

 

Yes, but ive raced Laguna against the entire field on rain tires while i was on my bald Toyo race rubber! (and got second by the way).

And I have more engine torque than probably anyone in this discussion. . It really wasnt that hard, once you found the limits. I had one scarry moment on lap one where the car was locked up and going 100mph to turn 5, but after gathering it up to slow, i dont think i got much of a wiggle the rest of the race.
Also, as far as torque. yes, I had to be careful with the throttle. but I was able to go WOT in 3rd/4th if i handled the wheel spin correctly

mk

 

VR, you have not answered the simple question. Ive provided two separate dynos to compare. folllowing Des' description of two cars, both with the same HP BUT, one with more torque than the other.. Peak values are realitively meaningless, due to them giving almost no indication of a shape of a HP curve. You give me peak numbers and Ill make the answer go either way for the answer of which is better on a road course.

You are getting to caught up in the bashing.

Why dont you answer the question. can a car that has more torque than another, even though they both have the same HP be better be better on a road course. You seem to be so hung up on type of track, etc. call it VIR then.

Take a look at those dyno comparisons once again.

285hp but one with much more torque
200hp, but one wiht MUCH more torque

look at the curves, and the point i am trying to make is crystal clear.

power at ANY vehicle speed, determines the rate of acceleration. the broader the HP curve, the more torque that will be available at the rear wheels REGARDLESS of engine torque.

mk