Veloce Raptor

Des, irrespective of any arguments about gearing, differentials, etc, the fact remains that--with equal HP--the car with more torque (and as Greg correctly says, more of it down lower where it is useful on track) will get out of corners faster, which is a big predicate to lap times.

wanna911

No, not really, at some point torque is going to outweigh the traction you have at the tires and only so much of it can be used at any given time. Especially on street tires. Just like braking, your acceleration is only as good as the grip in your tires. If you're talking about once the wheel is straight then you're no longer talking about corner exit but the next straight which is an entirely different arguement.

I will listen to ideas, but there are too many championship winning teams that don't have tons of torque beating cars that do to ignore the merits of high revs and significant, but not over powering torque. I've seen the R10's spin and get sideways a lot exiting corners a lot compared to the Spyders. So including driver error is seems as if the lesser amount of torque may be easier to apply all of what's available.

I am not asking about all torque vs no torque. As I do not think that an F1 car that only revs to 14000 rpm and has 800 lb ft would be faster. It would be far too hard to drive IMO.

So the answer lies somewhere in between. Otherwise every race car would be a 5k revving Turbo super torque monster like a Semi truck and that is not the case.

Veloce Raptor

I disagree. A good driver will recognize the limits & give the car what it needs in order for it to give him/her what he needs. Wheelspin happens with high HP, too. Follow a Ferrari 430 on track sometimes. Low TQ, high HP, plenty of wheelspin with a hamfisted drover. But will lose out of corners every time out of the corners to a Z06.

jakermc

+1

And not just lap times, but your ability to pass and defend another car. If we are talking about racing and not just lap time, the torque advantage becomes even more important. If I come out of a corner before my competitor I can influence his drive and potentially his ability to utilize any hp advantage.

As others have said so well, torque creates hp at a given rpm. More torque over a broad rpm band equals more hp over a wider band of the rev range. When a torquey car pulls another out of a corner it does so because it is creating more hp at that time (given the same rpms). So everyone is right

wanna911

Exactly, so he's not using all of the torque at that given time, so the fact remains that through throttle modulation each car is only using the amount of torque the car will handle which at the limit in the same type of car would be pretty much the same. So unless that threshold is high enough where the lower tq car is flat then there is no advantage to having more torque at that point in time because you cant use it all.


Let's take the 996 GT3 and 996 GT2 as prime examples. Similar suspension foundations, though the GT2 has a much wider footprint, about 100 hp and 200 more lb feet. I cant say for sure that a 996 GT2 would beat the GT3 on the same wide body and 480 hp about 360 lb ft.

The evidence in racing says almost the exact opposite of what you are claiming. Be it F1, P2 vs P1, or GT racing, obviously torque is expendable to some extent. The spyders absolutely killed the R10's in cornering, and not just on the tight courses where the turning radius was poor on the R10's but and twisty sections of any track the Spyders would own them badly and then get walked well down the straight.

I'm trying to see where you are drawing your conclusions because the racing world tends to show that torque is expendable or at least exchangeable for more hp and higher revs.

onefastviking

Everybody keeps refering this to different cars which you can not do !
Way too many variables, gearbox is the biggest, then driver, aero, weights, tire patch, suspensions, etc etc etc ......

Veloce Raptor

Exactly. Des, look at production-based sports cars to keep it simple. Why do you think the Vettes have done so well?

onefastviking

More curiously does anyone here know or understand HOW ,and or, WHEN torque is created ?
No Googling, who really knows ?

gbaker

Torque = force x distance. It does not produce speed because there is no time variable in the equation. HP produces speed.

Gregg S. Baker, P.E.

APKhaos

At great personal risk, I suggest you all consider the following:

Engine power output is proportional to the amount of fuel burned in a given unit time. So, to increase that output you must improve overall volumetric efficiency and try to generate more cycles in the same unit of time. This means increasing engine revs.

This is a quote. If you even wondered why F1 engines are designed to rev at 19,000RPM, this is your answer. With engine capacity and volumeric efficiency being equal, a higher revving engine will generate more power.

onefastviking

Yes, so in simpler terms at what point in our airpumps are they actually producing torque ?

onefastviking

Air is needed to burn fuel, and yes vol. effic. is very important, that is why the supercharged engine produces more torque.

Professor Helmüt Tester

Area under the curve.

jakermc

You need to carry your formula out a little further. If you believe hp produces speed and hp is calculated as

hp = (torque x rpm) / 5252

then you should agree that torque produces hp which in turn produces speed. Therefore torque does in fact produce speed.

gbaker

Torque alone does not produce speed.

If you twist a rod in one direction, and I twist it in the other direction with an equal amount of torque, it does not rotate, i.e. speed = 0.