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Torque or HP on the road course????? Which is better?

 
Old 02-04-2009, 11:38 PM
  #46  
onefastviking
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Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor View Post
You sound a lot like another all hat no cattle toolbox named Frank Lin AKA GhettoRacer.

Enjoy your delusions of adequacy, Tweedle Dumber.
VR, lose the battle, win the war !
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:40 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by onefastviking View Post
VR, lose the battle, win the war !
Yup. Hammering on wayne is like batting practice anyway.
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:43 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by onefastviking View Post
This question and debate is so tempting to jump in on, but I think I will keep it simple.
It is an airpump.
Horsepower and Torque are related, with RPM in the equation. - It's a simple equation.
Efficency is king.
Gears, whether trans or rearend/diff can/will multiply effect.

While those statements should clear things up they will probably just muddy it worse for most.
The gear box is part of the equation , yah !

VR can't win squat in fact that **** couldn't driver nails into a drywall ...........
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:46 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by A.Wayne View Post
The gear box is part of the equation , yah !
No ****, dingleberry. Please refer back to post #12 in this thread.

Man, you are dumb. Ta-ta for now!
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:52 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor View Post
No ****, dingleberry. Please refer back to post #12 in this thread.

Man, you are dumb. Ta-ta for now!
Yes Mr "RPM" is a waste of time Dumber than a nail DE "coach"
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:30 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post
*Car A (supercharged)
400 hp 396 torque
Rev limit 6100 rpm
Peak torque at 3800 rpm
Peak hp at 6000 rpm

Car B (N/A)
*400 hp 300 torque
Rev limit 8400 rpm
Peak torque at 6100 rpm
Peak hp at 8200 rpm
There's really not enough data for us to know. First off the torque numbers at the flywheel can't be directly compared due to torque multiplication of the trans and diff(for this example we will assume the transmissions are the same). Just because car A has more torque at the flywheel does not mean it has more torque at the wheel, this is do to torque multiplication at the differential. Lets say car A has a 2.98 diff and car B has a 4.10, with those gears both cars would shift at the same MPH. So car A makes 396 ft/lbs x 2.98=1180 ft/lbs, car B makes 300 x 4.10=1230 ft/lbs. Since car B has the 'extra' gear multiplication it actually makes more wheel torque at its peak.

However, peak torque numbers don't mean a lot, what matters is area under the torque curve in the usual track rpm range(say upper 50%, which is rather generous). The car with more area x diff ratio is going to be the faster one.
Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor View Post
Both cars make same HP, but car A makes it much lower in the rev range, which is much more useful on a road course (IMO) especially a very technical one such as Barber. In addition, car A also makes peak torque (which is also a lot more than car B's) much MUCH lower in the revs, which is a lot more useful getting out of corners even on more open road courses such as Road Atlanta and VIR.
Keep in mind the peak torque rpms are relative to that cars redline, not the other car. Car A's peak torque is 62% into the cars rev range, car B's peak torque is 74% into the cars rev range. Yes that's a significant amount, but it's not 3800 vs 6100.

Mark, torque is what accelerates a car, not hp. Also, HP is calculated from torque, not the other way around.

Last edited by Greg Smith; 02-05-2009 at 01:04 AM.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:37 AM
  #52  
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Ok, aside from the bickering..........

What if we are talking street tires here, not race conditions, no gears adjusted for racing.

Let's say a 997 GT3 motor at 415 hp and 300 tq vs a C5 Z06 at 405 hp and 400 tq wedged in a 944 on PS2's. Rev stay the same, hp stays the same etc. All Porsche vs Chevy aside just looking at power application.

I happen to like the high revs, but my car is turbo so I love the torque too.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:39 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Greg Smith View Post
There's really not enough data for us to know. First off the torque numbers at the flywheel can't be directly compared due to torque multiplication of the trans and diff(for this example we will assume the transmissions are the same). Just because car A has more torque at the flywheel does not mean it has more torque at the wheel, this is do to torque multiplication at the differential. Lets say car A has a 2.98 diff and car B has a 4.10, with those gears both cars would shift at the same MPH. So car A makes 396 ft/lbs x 2.98=1180 ft/lbs, car B makes 300 x 4.10=1230 ft/lbs. Since car B has the 'extra' gear multiplication it actually makes more wheel torque at its peak.

.

That's why I said all else the same, just looking at preferable power bands. Same car, different motor, same everything else (tires, tranny, gearbox, clutch everything).
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:43 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post
That's why I said all else the same, just looking at preferable power bands. Same car, different motor, same everything else (tires, tranny, gearbox, clutch everything).
That would be ridiculous to have the same differential in two cars, one of which had a 6100 rpm and the other 8400 rpm. You can't look at it from your perspective, it's not a fair comparison at all.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:56 AM
  #55  
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Ok then keep the gear ratios that go with the motors. I dont know them specifically, but the GT3 and C5Z respectively.
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Old 02-05-2009, 01:03 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post
Ok then keep the gear ratios that go with the motors. I dont know them specifically, but the GT3 and C5Z respectively.
Then you have different transmissions which can change ratio relative to each other with each gear. The fair way to compare them is with gearing that sets them to have the same shift MPH and top speed, which is what I did. The answer is still the same, area under the torque curve of the usable rpm range x gear ratio. Even if we do know the gear ratios, we still don't know the area.

Last edited by Greg Smith; 02-05-2009 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 02-05-2009, 01:10 AM
  #57  
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Not that I want to hand another loaded gun to VR... but just take a look at the audi diesels for an example of how torque helps...that said a gearbox is basically a torque multiplier, so you either produce high horsepower and create torque by reduction through the gearbox, or you produce high torque and create power by multiplying the torque. The fact of the matter is it is easier to produce higher horsepower in a smaller/ligher powerplant than it is to produce big torque numbers, so typically high horsepower usually wins, unless you have a hell of a lot of torque aka audi R10....

FLAME ON!....
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Old 02-05-2009, 01:29 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by J richard View Post
Not that I want to hand another loaded gun to VR... but just take a look at the audi diesels for an example of how torque helps...that said a gearbox is basically a torque multiplier, so you either produce high horsepower and create torque by reduction through the gearbox, or you produce high torque and create power by multiplying the torque. The fact of the matter is it is easier to produce higher horsepower in a smaller/ligher powerplant than it is to produce big torque numbers, so typically high horsepower usually wins, unless you have a hell of a lot of torque aka audi R10....

FLAME ON!....
The Audi has other factors that assist it in it's performance , the biggest one being the restrictions on the gasoline powered cars, current rules favor diesel powered cars .
Take away the inlet restrictors that favor a low reving TQ monster like the Audi and there would be no contest...
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Old 02-05-2009, 05:41 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Greg Smith View Post
Then you have different transmissions which can change ratio relative to each other with each gear. The fair way to compare them is with gearing that sets them to have the same shift rpm's and top speed, which is what I did. The answer is still the same, area under the torque curve of the usable rpm range x gear ratio. Even if we do know the gear ratios, we still don't know the area.
Same shift rpms defeats the purpose of having a high revving motor in the comparison.

Let me pose this as a question then. I'll leave P1 and P2 out of it (Spyder vs R10) because of the different sets of rules. But if you compare GT1 and GT2 I don't think there is one favorable rule for the GT2 class at all. Street chassis, smaller brakes, tires, less aero, equal or more weight. The GT2 C6R is 2400 lbs has 590 hp and 630 lb ft to go with all those advantages compared to last years RSR at 465 hp and 317 ft lbs.

So if you raised the power on the RSR to 590 hp and kept the same ratio of torque (68% which would put the RSR at 400 lb ft) and put the Corvette on a street chassis and eliminated all of the other advantages could the Ferrari's and RSR's and BMW's beat the GT1 cars? They are mostly 2-4 seconds slower at most tracks.
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Old 02-05-2009, 09:25 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Greg Smith View Post
However, peak torque numbers don't mean a lot, what matters is area under the torque curve in the usual track rpm range(say upper 50%, which is rather generous). The car with more area x diff ratio is going to be the faster one.

Keep in mind the peak torque rpms are relative to that cars redline, not the other car. Car A's peak torque is 62% into the cars rev range, car B's peak torque is 74% into the cars rev range. Yes that's a significant amount, but it's not 3800 vs 6100.

Mark, torque is what accelerates a car, not hp. Also, HP is calculated from torque, not the other way around.
Agree with all of this.
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