Well, I guess we will have to disagree. Ive been going to Laguna with the same car with no changes and had run 1:40.2 as a best time, with new hoosiers, or toyos. For 4 years, 2001 to 2005 before the track changed, those bests didnt change. I did used those heat cycled to death hoosiers, before I realized it was the tire that was costing me 2-3 seconds for a few races where I had them. It wasnt until I was able to do a session to session comparison with the toyo vs old hooseirs that i figured it out. Even though they looked good, they were DONE!
If I felt that a new set of hoosiers could give me 2 full seconds, I would buy a set tomorrow. I just havent seen them perform that different. Realistically, its probably 1 second in a controlled environment on a 1:40 second lap track.

Also, there are many drivers that do not get the full capability out of the toyos when making the change from Hoosiers. It is a style change that not everyone can adapt to.

If I added up, and did, all the things that are said to give me 2 seconds a lap, I would be able to win SpeedGT with my old bugger!

Mk

 

fair enough

yeah, you can easily give up that much time on old hoosiers or hankooks...they really turn to **** at some point...the last time i used "dead" tires was when i was doing some engine testing last year (didnt care about lap times) and the car was just plowing like crazy at corner entry, then loose as hell at corner exit...good times, lol...i couldnt take it anymore and decided to scrub in some new tires, instantly dropping 3 seconds/lap...

agreed

 

Yeah, in my limited recent experience with the Hankooks, the first set began to cord before they heat cycled out. The second set heat cycled out quite abruptly (going CW at TWS, in Turn 2/1). When I took them off, they just had a tiny amount of cord beginning to show. The transition from good to bad was very sudden.

That said, I got ~22-24 HARD heat cycles out of each set.

 

Another interesting comparison was done at Laguna with a known set of drivers and near the same cars in a BMW club race. David Lang and Bruce Matesso, who have a lot of experience (at least bruce does) at Laguna, ran near the same time both on different tires over the summer. Lang on the new hoosiers and matesso on the Toyos. bruces toyo times exceeded, by a few tenths his best time on a brand new set of hoosiers. Bruce is also very good at driving the toyos, as I mentioned, they have a characteristic that is different and requires a slightly different driving style. in the end, they are very close as seen by the World Challenge GT and Touring times at a track near you.

mk

 

was this at the event in april of last year? results list bruce matesso in a c-mod car and david lang in an I-prepared car...not sure how "near the same" those cars would be as C-mod cars are typically quite a bit faster than prepared class cars...or was it a different event in different cars?

not really sure what this means...can you elaborate? none of the WC drivers i know have run hoosiers on their WC cars to compare...and it's tough to compare WC times to times of completely different cars/drivers at other events

 

Yes, that was the event. Both cars are very similar. Matesso's C-Mod is almost a I-Prepared. still has glass, still has bumpers, maybe 50lbs lighter, and Lang has a very built up US 3.2 where Matesso has the euro. down the straight, they are dead even. anyway, from video , times and educated assesement of the differences, they are few. maybe a second, best case.
Matesso, who again has a lot of race seat time at Laguna, did the comparison with the Hoosiers and actually his best time was slower than his RA1 time. (almost the same) He admitted that there was a little more bite in the new hoosier, but overall, with the tire going away during the race, the Toyo felt like it was as fast and more consistant over the entire race.

Bruce matesso has swapped from toyos to hoosiers with no difference
Ive swapped from hoosiers to toyos with no difference.
The C5 racer vet Rob Wardlow ran hoosiers and then tried a set of my toyos with no difference.
If I could buy 2 seconds, as I said, I would do it tomorrow. But, there is no way, my car as it sits can run a 1:35.xxwith just a set of hoosiers at Laguna!


As far as WC times, thats more or less a yard stick. touring cars at 1:36s at Laguna, GTs at 1:29 at laguna are very fast times. These cars are not going to run 1:27s on hoosiers . We often have the WC Vipers out with us and often they are running hoosiers. when changing back and forth, their times dont seem to be much different. Again, having driven a lot of races with both, at a track that I have more race time than most, i can tell you the differences are in favor of the hoosier, but the differences are not 2 seconds, probably more like i said, under 1. The toyos are very fast if you know how to drive them. You have to like the feel of the car on edge, if you dont, you wont be as fast on them. Talk to any of the American Sedan or CMC racers that have done both. they Love the RA1s due to their characteristics and style of driving that the tire requires.

We race at laguna seca more often than any set of pros do, or any other race group in the world. So, it is really a home track for us. The track didnt change much for years and then recently, it had a paving that has changed the feel since 2006. However, we get pretty good at predicting what kind of cars will run what kind of times, with certain types of drivers. There are not many surprises.
Again, with my experience there, running both toyos and hoosiers over the years, I just havent seen HUGE differences in the tires. What I have seen is what most see. new hoosiers have a little more bite. toyos last a race without them "going off" with a more "slidey" feel to them, and in the end, maybe we are talking a second, not 2.

Here is the video of the race from matesso's car in april.

http://www.vimeo.com/907228

mk

 

I lost your point somewhere in there.

Using your car as an example, at Laguna Seca, what would you run with:

New slicks (I guess pick one as a benchmark):
New Hoho R6s:
New Toyos:


Same day, same temps, etc, everything else constant. And whoever is driving knows how to drive each tire.

 

So, at laguna, during WC for example, we tried brand new toyos (actually anderson did) and found no time at all between new and good used. I suspect that the new toyos would give the factory teams a tenth or two at the most during qualifying.

To answer your question for my car:

new toyos - 1:37.8 -1:38.0 base on the last race.
new hoho's - 1:37.0-1:37.5
new slicks - 1:36.0 to possibly down to 1:35.5 depending on the slick.

For another car with a lot of laps at Laguna, Anderson in his 928 has run:
new toyos- 1:34.9 (this year and near this time back in a WC GT race)
new slicks - 1:31.5 (this year)
This is a tricky comparison as the tire sizes are different.
I imagine that He would be slightly faster on a new set of hoosiers vs the toyo run.
In talking with Mark, he was able to keep on pushing the slicks to faster and faster times vs the toyos. On a warm day on a track like laguna, grip is a huge factor for time.

 

I thought the point was crystal clear? So are the RA1s a bit slidey 4 wheel drift type feeling?
Still wondering how long on average the slicks would take to get up to temp?

 

Yep, you got it. Its really hard to describe, if you havent driven them before, but as you get used to them, they seem very predictable and slide just a little. the same amount of sliding on the hoosier, usually results in them breaking loose and putting you in a oversteer slide or worse. You got to drive the RA1s very aggresively, and if you do, I contend they are near as fast. Probably safe to say, as fast toward the end of the race and as fast after a few heat cycles on the Hoosiers.

Mk

 

agreed.

in my experience 1-3 laps depending on ambient temp and whether it's the first run of the day or the fourth. once they get the first cycle of the day they don't require as much time to heat up next time around.

have you thought about getting slick takeoffs? much much cheaper than buying brand new slicks. May not be cost effective if you're running such short time periods, but it's definitely cheaper.

edit - another thing is not all slicks are the same. yokohama, for instance, has four different compounds within their advan slick range