TraqGear

Tranny has more to do with the car than you might think. Since I have a crappy trans, I have to baby it to an extent, thus reducing my racing times. I've already replaced it once and it is acting up again. So it does have a big affect on the car, unfortunately at every race.

Overall, I think my weights are a great starting point. They are based on HP percentages and figured as so, with a 50 lb boost to the 997 bodystyle. They are within an obtainable range for every car without adding a bunch of weight. You will have to do more too a 3.4 car to get the weight down, BUT, your donor car will be cheaper...much cheaper in some instances and therefore free up funds to build it to be more nimble. If we race and there appears to be big discrepancies in car handling or power, we can adjust from there.

Last year all the weights were the same and my car faired well among even the most powerful cars. 100 pounds makes a huge difference in the ability for the 996 to handle. So I think the max spread should be 300 with a 50 pounds adjustment for the 997, for a total of 350. If we keep increasing it, might as well have a stock class car.

Keep in mind that we want to run NASA along with PCA. I can't afford to travel around the country to race, so running this area works well for me. So, I def don't want my car to be a pig in NASA...I'll be fodder. Running both clubs allows me to race once per month all year long and not travel beyond a 5 hour drive. I can increase it a little and run VIR and Birmingham.

BTW, I thought your car ran high 41's at CMP. Gilbert and I both ran low 40's. Cory also ran low 38's in my car.

Dude, your statement..."the weight thing is overrated"...come on now Dell. I can't believe you said that out loud. Weight is a huge deal with these cars. I can't speak for the built 997's, but the 996 doesn't respond well until you get it under 2800 without driver. Power can only make up for so much in a turn. Straight is another story.

LVDell

Roger, you are way over stating that. The box, while inferior, is NOT a detriment at every race. Those gearboxes last about 4 races and that is at the hands of a pro that DOES NOT baby the box. Come on, quit trying to rationalize this with subjective evidence.

Looks like we have part of the reason for your weights


I ran a 41 flat my first session out on the new configuration. After a couple sessions under my belt my car ran 40's at CMP and I didn't get the benefit of new slicks either. There was easily a 37 or 38 in my car with new slicks. I can only imagine what 300 pounds off the car and new tires would have done!

Don't misread me. I said it is overrated b/c the times that I posted CAN be done. It just took a different level of confidence in me versus the car Sure, the car would have benefitted from less weight and I can only imagine what times I could have turned in my GT3 with say 300 less pounds as well as running a set of slicks (never did I run a new set).

blakt out

OK guys. Good morning.

Let's clarify some things: Roger's whole "Just because your GT3 was both heavy and fast doesn't mean that we should be content with running heavy" argument is just that. However, Dell is debating it like "Really. It is applicable. If you're insanely fast, it won't matter and here's why." I know you aren't saying it like that, but essentially that's what's being said on both sides. Here's the thing: ROGER is the one with the experience that matters here. HE has made a car lighter and lighter and lighter, bit by bit. He knows how 50 and 100lbs effects a GTB car. He thinks it matters a bunch, and doesn't think he should sacrifice that feel so that ALL 996s and 997s can be as fast as him, due to his mid-high level engine. Roger, correct me if I'm wrong. It just seems that a lot of restating is going on here, not really fresh debating. This is where Roger and I agree. I wasn't literally looking at it egocentrically. I'm actually a pretty objective fellow, though I understand how you would see my comments that way. I used the first person for two reasons: I DO have a car that will be crippled if I run it in GTB and I am at the crux point of the decision, even more than you are Dell. I have my car at the shop and I'm waiting to see what I am going to do (not that these rules are the ONLY factor, but they are a factor for sure).

Now is a good time to point out that you agree with me/us on something important, and I don't think it's known.
I have said: " I told Tim on the phone that I think that they have to have the rules open enough for the class to grow in the initial years, but with the obvious and stated intent for GTB to be broken up later on."
You said: "Of course the logical solution is GTB-1 (996) and GTB-2 (997) but there are NOT enough cars. If you want the class to exist with more than 1 or 2 cars, this is the ONLY solution."
I also said: "IF the goal is for them all to actually COMPETE... then I don't know what I'd do differently."

So, if there were enough cars, we all agree that GTB by definition wouldn't have to be such a broad class. See, sometimes it sounds like your argument is that GTB by definition should have it to where all these cars have to be competitive. I don't like that view. But then you say that if there were enough cars, we could split it up. These two views are contradictory in nature. I wholeheartedly agree that they shouldn't be together in theory, because no COMMON ENGINED race car should be FORCED to run that heavy because the sanctioning body saw fit to put it with a far cry of a competitor FOREVER. However, if this is what is needed to get the class up and going, then that's fine too. I said that I would want that known from the start though, so that I would be happy in my first years of the "putting the weight in for PCA, taking it out for NASA" hassle... knowing that we were growing a PCA class that would, at some point of maturity, be split where I (and many others) could run their cars at a 'GT race car correct' weight.

You are very fast, Dell. Also, I really respect your brain, and who you are. So that's why I tip-toed in my initial post. I know that the tone of emails and posts can be taken incorrectly. With that set aside now, I do want to ask you to read through all these last posts, since I posted to you last night, and give them a new objective eye. Many of your points aren't applicable to our situation. Just because you were fast in your 3200lb GT3 doesn't make me say, "Yeah, he's right. I should be happy with those extra pounds too." I want that very light feeling. I think that, with a car that Porsche sold darn near more than anything, a 997S, there should be EVENTUALLY a PCA class where they can be GT prepped and not have to run GTC. A GTB-2 class would EVENTUALLY (once the GTB class was grown) be a terrific class where engines were totally stock and you could replace them without selling a kidney. I took my engine in as a core on Wednesday and a new one was in on Friday. That's wonderful and would be a great backbone to a killer class.

And, as much as I hate it for the 3.4 guys, I think your idea of knocking those out and everything down a notch is a very good one an in the right direction for sure. I think it will take thinking out of the box. This is a SAMPLE of another out of the box idea, but not a REAL one offered up.

"If you choose to run R compound tires instead of slicks, you have the equivalent of 150lbs."
"If you choose to run 17" wheels instead of 18" wheels, you have the equivalent of 50lbs."

I don't know at ALL how good those numbers are. But the idea, I think, might spark some good ideas that help us all out here.

blakt out

Sorry to be the young guy who is trying to keep this on track, but both of your last posts have to do with how applicable Dell's experience in his GT3 is. Doesn't matter. Roger's incremental experience with the same car, a GTB car, as he took weight out is what matters. No need to talk more about Dell's car or his times. If the argument is truly being made that weight is overrated, then, well... come on guys. Let's focus here.

TraqGear

Ok my friend. I like a debate, but lets keep it real. I had to look back at an old post, but you said your best time was a 41.2.
"I have only run CMP with the GT3 on the new layout once and ran a 1:41.2 several times. With new tires and a few days to figure out the new section there is easily a sub 1:40 lap."
I had to make sure I wasn't crazy. My car with me in it was 3000 at CMP so we have a difference of 220 lbs.

Call it subjective evidence all you want. I can't drive full out with my transmission being stock. When it gets hot it will start grinding when the rpms are taken to the max on an upshift and has done that on 2 different transmissions. So, unless I want to change it out every 4 races, then yes it is a factor when racing, ESPECIALLY at CMP where I got into 2nd multiple times.

Anyway, not trying to be too technical here. In fact, I would say we are both beating a dead horse with the weight issue.

You are a great guy and I appreciate the debate. I look forward to racing with you. Man, you and I would have a blast racing in the same class!...we are both very, very competitve! I'll give you a buzz later...gotta a lunch meeting shortly. Rog

LVDell

Jared, you are missing a very important point here. And yes, my experience does matter. You are trying to make this an absolute argument which you haven't experienced yet. I have driven MANY cars for MANY years on track and done so at the limit of my ability. Those cars range from 2700-3200 pounds. So yes, I know what weight feels like.

And you really are still missing the point. You want GTB to be a class that has more than a couple guys running so you have to include ALL the 996/997 cars and that goes to the very heart of the problem. Can't have it both ways. And yes, weight penalty to make cars even is how it works. Looks at Grand-Am, Koni, etc, and you will see weight changes based on that very ideal. If you don't want to run heavy, then tough, you leave the sport. Do you think the Grand-Am guys in the Pontiac's were happy when they got the weight penalty so the Porsche's would be competitive again? Same concept.

Either it's going to be a VERY BIG compromise to have GTB as one class or it needs to be split to GTB1 and 2 so the weight can be amongst 3 motors instead of 6! If not, it looks like the BEST option is GT class (probably somewhere between GT2 and GT4 depending on motor and weight).

My suggestion to you is to decide FIRST what you want to race as you don't have that established yet and two, get racing and then you will understand more of this argument. You are still approaching this from an egocentric point of view what is best for YOU and not what is best for the class.

LVDell

Agreed. As far as my times at CMP, I had to go back to my Traqmate data to confirm. I ran the 41 my first session out so I can absolutely confirm that.

Anyway, give me a call later.

joel-cs

Do you use a transmission cooler? Could take care of at least part of your problem...

blakt out

K. I'm signing off. I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone. Yall have a great day.

LVDell

Twilight zone?

blakt out

Yeah.

The whole thing is feeling confrontational, at least towards me, I guess because I haven't done this before and think I can still have an opinion. It also feels like the Twilight Zone because I actually agree with a good percentage of what you're saying, but you don't even see that. You're my friend, and that is more important to me than GTB, PCA, or whatever the rules end up being. I'd rather just sign off and maintain that.

But in a last effort to let you know where I stand, I've been agreeing in that I don't think that anything other than a weight penalty such as has been laid out can be done in order to grow the class. My wild ideas about DOT tires and such were just thrown out there, as I thought it would be fun to dive into. However, as time goes by, there will be many more 997Ss in the class. I believe that I read that Porsche sold more 997Ss than any other model recently. Once the class grows enough, through just the methods that you and others have laid out, I think there will be a need for dividing the GTB class. Please note that I once again said "once the class grows enough". I believe that this split can be predicted to occur SOME TIME in the future. And due to this, I would like it to be told NOW to us possible GTBers that the class could and likely will split in the future once it grows large enough.

Why? Well, here's my point: Because if I (not just as egocentric me, but as one of the large number of 997S racers) know that now and for the next few years while the class grows I will have to run at 3200lbs (random #) and also know that once GTB grows large enough (no specific date or size need be given) the class will split and I could find myself able to run 200lbs lighter (another random #). If I were told this, then I would now do the weight saving measures such as doors and fenders, etc. Then, I'd add the ballast. When the class splits, I'll be ready. I don't have to reengineer anything. That's a valid hope, I think. Where you and I apparently disagree is that you say that weights are overrated and, essentially, we shouldn't worry about them or move to another class. You back this up by stating how fast you are in a "similar" car that heavy. I say, I don't care how fast you can go at this weight, or how similar your car is to Gilbert's. You're going to be very fast at VIR in anything. I wasn't saying your opinion didn't matter or that mine mattered more than anyone else's. That's another part of the Twilight Zone. You pointed out senseless things about my lack of experience. I don't try to hide that. However I will point out that the way that I pay for my hobby, at the core, is that I'm paid large sums of money to fix big problems. To have you constantly misread me and tell me that I'm not objective, and that I don't really have an argument because I haven't driven a ton of cars... that's... well... I'm not going to keep coming back to read it. That's all.

Again, because I think that there must be some uncanny reason that you aren't getting what I'm saying, I will try to boil it down even further. Sorry to all of you who got me a few posts ago.

At some point in the future, I predict that 997Ss will be the majority in GTB because of the sales numbers and how the costs are coming rapidly down. I also predict that GTB as a whole will, at some point in the future, be a very healthy class. So, I conclude that, at some point in the future, GTB will split. If, by my lack of experience with PCA, driving, and the world in general, I am making a bad prediction, I want to know now, because it would effect how I build my car NOW. This is why I posted. This is why I talked to Tim. And all of this is set on the foundation that lighter cars are more fun, no matter how fast you or anyone else can go in any other heavier car.

I don't see how this has become what it has become once I got involved, but it has. Dell, I look forward to hanging out soon, buying you a Oak Tree Ale, and talking about our boys.

Jared

LVDell

First off Jared, this is not confrontational toward you at all so don't take it that way. You and I are good friends so I hope you can interpret it as such. It's meant to illustrate what comes with time....experience (both in the car and racing).

The other problem is you CANNOT create the class today for what it MIGHT be tomorrow. And to say that the 997S will be "the" car for the car is a long shot. I sure as heck don't have the funds to buy a 997S today or tomorrow for the purposes of making it exclusively a track toy. There will ALWAYS be a spread across the class. If the weights are fair, then I am going to seriously look into a '02 3.6 and prep it for GTB. I can afford that. But not a 997S. Besises, I would MUCH prefer the lower weight than the higher hp and IMHO, I think the package Roger has with the 996 x51 (and the 997 3.6) are slotted PERFECTLY in the middle of the group.

GTB has a big identity problem right now and the best way to solve that is to define the class PROPERLY such that all the cars included in the class are competitive and that would subsequently (I am guessing here though) bring the numbers that would make it a great class. It would be great if a common ground could be found and soon. That sure would help to end this thread and the anticipation of what the class could or should be

I agree about the beer. God knows I need it

TIM COSTA

I think this was getting a little too intense.
It kind of funny to me that there is this much "discussion" about this subject and we havnt even started the season yet. Whos to say that someone driving a 996 3.6 that weighs 3000#s wont go out and spank someone driving a 997 3.6 X51. There is a HUGE point thats being overlooked here and that is the drivers skill level. I dont care what the weights are if they're close enough the driver will be the determining factor. Can anyone tell me if there even is anyone how plans on campaining a 996 with a 3.4 in it and if so why? Those cars are great in "H" class why would somebody even try to compete against a 997 with one?
I for one cant wait till we actually get on the track with some kind of weights and just go at it (even if, at this point, Im running at 3175#s with me in it)!!!!

Tim

blakt out

Good word, brutha.

LVDell

Two things Tim. First, I already rec'd removing the 3.4 from GTB and then adjusting the weights accordingly so I agree with you there. I think that makes ALOT of sense. Second, this has NOTHING to do with driver skill. It has to do with "like competitive" cars. You cannot factor driver skill into it. Cars need to be equal, not driver.