ALMS Laguna Seca 08 times. Amazing!
10-20-2008, 12:01 PM
#16
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Fully prepped Grand Am Cup car...no solid spherical bushings, no cage to the front suspension, crappy Grand-Am Cup Hoosiers. There's nothing special about a Grand-Am Cup car. They are more "street stock" in a lot of ways than even a SCCA ITcar.
10-20-2008, 12:53 PM
#17
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This Grand AM GS BMW had brand new R6's, motons, 320rwhp.
Now, you you want to talk about my car. No mods of any kind to the suspension, simple 6 point cage, 310rwhp, pick ups, ALL original rubber bushings from 20 years ago, one alignment 7 years ago, and used toyos out of the garbage can.
Now, the point of this was that even with a car that is superior, usually good drivers will be within a second or so of each other. Randy also raced the owners other faster car, (evo turbo w 500hp) who is a decent club racer and only posted the same time. Remember, Pobst had a lot of experience with 4x4 big hp cars running the Audi RS6 in WCGT. We talked about the owners car after the race and he said there was not much time left to be found with it and he liked driving it.
So, the question is, where is the 10 seconds on the new GT3RS ALMS porsches? We have all seen the 438rwhp dynos of the older GT3RS, and the unrestricted WCGT GT3cups with their special engines are in the same range. weight in WC is 2800lbs with driver, and they are getting in the 1:29s with DOTs, so call them 1:27s on slicks. So, maybe we are olnly looking for the 5 seconds with the ALMS GT3RS. all aero and suspension? even more power?
mk
Now, you you want to talk about my car. No mods of any kind to the suspension, simple 6 point cage, 310rwhp, pick ups, ALL original rubber bushings from 20 years ago, one alignment 7 years ago, and used toyos out of the garbage can.
Now, the point of this was that even with a car that is superior, usually good drivers will be within a second or so of each other. Randy also raced the owners other faster car, (evo turbo w 500hp) who is a decent club racer and only posted the same time. Remember, Pobst had a lot of experience with 4x4 big hp cars running the Audi RS6 in WCGT. We talked about the owners car after the race and he said there was not much time left to be found with it and he liked driving it.
So, the question is, where is the 10 seconds on the new GT3RS ALMS porsches? We have all seen the 438rwhp dynos of the older GT3RS, and the unrestricted WCGT GT3cups with their special engines are in the same range. weight in WC is 2800lbs with driver, and they are getting in the 1:29s with DOTs, so call them 1:27s on slicks. So, maybe we are olnly looking for the 5 seconds with the ALMS GT3RS. all aero and suspension? even more power?
mk
10-20-2008, 01:03 PM
#18
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You have to be careful making comparisons. For example, Mark, you know that very few drivers get to run their cars with unrestricted sound at Laguna. This makes a difference. A lot of us Porsche racers in Norcal never drive or race at Laguna any more. The Porsche Racing Club has not had a run there since 2005. No laps, no set up development, no nothing. That makes a difference.
The track is low grip compared to other places according to some pros with whom I have spoken. And there is a lot of sand that gets on the track, which doesn't happen at every circuit.
Mr. Ichiban is right about a range in driver skills... he seems to have a keen insight.
I was down there Friday for a few hours and spoke to several Cup car drivers. The represent a range of experience and skill, and budget. Hopefully a few of them will come and join us at Sears Point this weekend for the PRC season-ender. It could be interesting to see how they do against some of our PRC home made cars.
If you really want to find out why the IMSA GT2 cars are so fast, I know a chief engineer from one of the top teams (red and silver "I want money, that's what I want cars")... he said he will be visiting with us up at Sears Point this weekend, and perhaps you could ask him.
The track is low grip compared to other places according to some pros with whom I have spoken. And there is a lot of sand that gets on the track, which doesn't happen at every circuit.
Mr. Ichiban is right about a range in driver skills... he seems to have a keen insight.
I was down there Friday for a few hours and spoke to several Cup car drivers. The represent a range of experience and skill, and budget. Hopefully a few of them will come and join us at Sears Point this weekend for the PRC season-ender. It could be interesting to see how they do against some of our PRC home made cars.
If you really want to find out why the IMSA GT2 cars are so fast, I know a chief engineer from one of the top teams (red and silver "I want money, that's what I want cars")... he said he will be visiting with us up at Sears Point this weekend, and perhaps you could ask him.
10-20-2008, 01:23 PM
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Rylan's car is hardly a WC car. In fact the time trial versions of the fart can cars are running 1:31.xx. As i have always said, my car is a good WC Touring car. ( same hp weight, and some have the same HP and are lighter). 
If you look at Prall and Davis and racing around a few years ago, you can see how even our cars were. (BMW Touring car, took 7th in the WCTouring race, or even Brandon Davis in his hot little acura). they were lighter too! Do you know what it costs to build a WC Touring car?? do you know what my car costs to build. I can and have built my car for less than $20k. Tell me how fast Bryce Miller, Brandon Davis or Seth, Matt, and the countless other guys Ive raced with would do with a car of this caliber.
I understand that there must be a ton of time gained for adjusting and tuning the relatively untouched suspension. my lap times havent changed in a few years and the car has much less power than it did 7 years ago.
When I was in the back of the pack, I could see my only deficit against the up and coming drivers (new guys to the series) in the CC Vipers, PTG bmws, and others was only in power. I was down up to 200hp against many of the competitors cars, yet only was down against some of the mid packers by few seconds. You give me a hot car, Ill put down a hot lap. Again, this is true for many of the good club guys.
Going back to times and ITE. There are no "hot " ITE cars, except Kent Jordans 550hp Evo. by the way, POBST drove this and only could muster out a time, all weekend long of a 1:34.7. Hmmm, not much faster than Touring cars! besides that beast, we did have a pure Griggs racing mustang that showed up this last Laguna with a guy that just had his first race and was time trialing 10 years ago and hadnt driven on a track in 7 years. He ran a 1:34 in this nascar motor powered mustang. Gunter who just ran at Road Atlanta and bought yet another hot comp coupe was at the top of the field in times. last year he ran with us in his 700hp viper and I was able to keep on his bumper.
Now, if you compare times of WC GT back in 1999-2000, my times would easily be in the to 10, in a car that still would have been 15 years old and down near 100 hp to the Archer viper, Anderson 928, and corvettes running.
Again, the point of all this is that there is a lot of good dirvers out there. People always like to take credit as drivers for miracle times. When you put them all in the same equipment, they always run pretty close. Even in the ALMSGT2 group, the 15 cars all had times with in a few seconds of each other and many of these drivers have quite diverse backgrounds and experience.
I do buy that when these $250k monsters are dialed in, they must do seemingly unbelieveable things, compared to what us club guys drive on the track. aero, tuining , tires, power, and brakes all must be quite amazing.
Anytime you want to come out to Laguna and teach us west coasters a little driving, you sure are welcome to!
mk
If you look at Prall and Davis and racing around a few years ago, you can see how even our cars were. (BMW Touring car, took 7th in the WCTouring race, or even Brandon Davis in his hot little acura). they were lighter too! Do you know what it costs to build a WC Touring car?? do you know what my car costs to build. I can and have built my car for less than $20k. Tell me how fast Bryce Miller, Brandon Davis or Seth, Matt, and the countless other guys Ive raced with would do with a car of this caliber.
I understand that there must be a ton of time gained for adjusting and tuning the relatively untouched suspension. my lap times havent changed in a few years and the car has much less power than it did 7 years ago.
When I was in the back of the pack, I could see my only deficit against the up and coming drivers (new guys to the series) in the CC Vipers, PTG bmws, and others was only in power. I was down up to 200hp against many of the competitors cars, yet only was down against some of the mid packers by few seconds. You give me a hot car, Ill put down a hot lap. Again, this is true for many of the good club guys.
Going back to times and ITE. There are no "hot " ITE cars, except Kent Jordans 550hp Evo. by the way, POBST drove this and only could muster out a time, all weekend long of a 1:34.7. Hmmm, not much faster than Touring cars! besides that beast, we did have a pure Griggs racing mustang that showed up this last Laguna with a guy that just had his first race and was time trialing 10 years ago and hadnt driven on a track in 7 years. He ran a 1:34 in this nascar motor powered mustang. Gunter who just ran at Road Atlanta and bought yet another hot comp coupe was at the top of the field in times. last year he ran with us in his 700hp viper and I was able to keep on his bumper.
Now, if you compare times of WC GT back in 1999-2000, my times would easily be in the to 10, in a car that still would have been 15 years old and down near 100 hp to the Archer viper, Anderson 928, and corvettes running.
Again, the point of all this is that there is a lot of good dirvers out there. People always like to take credit as drivers for miracle times. When you put them all in the same equipment, they always run pretty close. Even in the ALMSGT2 group, the 15 cars all had times with in a few seconds of each other and many of these drivers have quite diverse backgrounds and experience.
I do buy that when these $250k monsters are dialed in, they must do seemingly unbelieveable things, compared to what us club guys drive on the track. aero, tuining , tires, power, and brakes all must be quite amazing.
Anytime you want to come out to Laguna and teach us west coasters a little driving, you sure are welcome to!
mk
Because West coast club racers are slow? I see some big hardware in the SCCA ITE class out there, but ya'll aren't even running 2007 World Challenge Touring car times. 
SCCA ITE, 1:37.59: http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=866729
SCCA World Challenge, 1:35.85: http://www.world-challenge.com/event...lts.php?ID=552
Sorry, hard to pass up a chance to throw some stones at you West coast guys (especially the West coast BMW guys).
In all seriousness, Circuit summed it up already:
If you're capable of driving consistently enough to really setup a car and have the time/knowledge/ability to really start dialing it in, you can drop 2-4 seconds in a weekend on setup alone assuming it's not a track where you already have really good baselines.
To go back to the World Challenge (or ALMS or Star Mazda or...) example...we don't see the laptimes posted that they run on the Sponsors' test day on the series websites, but for the teams that don't have a lot of experience at a certain track, you occasionally see pretty significant leaps in speed between the Sponsors' test day and the official practice sessions
SCCA ITE, 1:37.59: http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=866729
SCCA World Challenge, 1:35.85: http://www.world-challenge.com/event...lts.php?ID=552
Sorry, hard to pass up a chance to throw some stones at you West coast guys (especially the West coast BMW guys).
In all seriousness, Circuit summed it up already:
If you're capable of driving consistently enough to really setup a car and have the time/knowledge/ability to really start dialing it in, you can drop 2-4 seconds in a weekend on setup alone assuming it's not a track where you already have really good baselines.
To go back to the World Challenge (or ALMS or Star Mazda or...) example...we don't see the laptimes posted that they run on the Sponsors' test day on the series websites, but for the teams that don't have a lot of experience at a certain track, you occasionally see pretty significant leaps in speed between the Sponsors' test day and the official practice sessions
Last edited by mark kibort; 10-20-2008 at 01:51 PM.
10-20-2008, 01:27 PM
#20
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You have to be careful making comparisons. For example, Mark, you know that very few drivers get to run their cars with unrestricted sound at Laguna. This makes a difference.
If you really want to find out why the IMSA GT2 cars are so fast, I know a chief engineer from one of the top teams (red and silver "I want money, that's what I want cars")... he said he will be visiting with us up at Sears Point this weekend, and perhaps you could ask him.
If you really want to find out why the IMSA GT2 cars are so fast, I know a chief engineer from one of the top teams (red and silver "I want money, that's what I want cars")... he said he will be visiting with us up at Sears Point this weekend, and perhaps you could ask him.
I'll be up at SP and heard the same thing...
10-20-2008, 01:31 PM
#21
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But, there is not much difference with 103db and the unrestricted sound, HOWEVER, the POC guys had to REALLY restrict their cars down. Anderson ran his 1:30.7 with a pure stock exhaust system for a 928. all the mufflers! the 911s had contraptions that were really funny looking. sure, that was a hp killer for many of them.
If you want to drive with near unrestricted sound, come out and race with us in ITE or in SP. Heck, 20 of the NW porsche racers came down to race with us a couple of weeks ago. I race at laguna near 4 times a year, EVERY year! To bad i dont have the resourses or the help to do any tuning other than what I feel and see on videos! I havent even had enough help to get a hot tire pressure in over 5 years now!
Mk
If you want to drive with near unrestricted sound, come out and race with us in ITE or in SP. Heck, 20 of the NW porsche racers came down to race with us a couple of weeks ago. I race at laguna near 4 times a year, EVERY year! To bad i dont have the resourses or the help to do any tuning other than what I feel and see on videos! I havent even had enough help to get a hot tire pressure in over 5 years now!
Mk
You have to be careful making comparisons. For example, Mark, you know that very few drivers get to run their cars with unrestricted sound at Laguna. This makes a difference. A lot of us Porsche racers in Norcal never drive or race at Laguna any more. The Porsche Racing Club has not had a run there since 2005. No laps, no set up development, no nothing. That makes a difference.
The track is low grip compared to other places according to some pros with whom I have spoken. And there is a lot of sand that gets on the track, which doesn't happen at every circuit.
Mr. Ichiban is right about a range in driver skills... he seems to have a keen insight.
I was down there Friday for a few hours and spoke to several Cup car drivers. The represent a range of experience and skill, and budget. Hopefully a few of them will come and join us at Sears Point this weekend for the PRC season-ender. It could be interesting to see how they do against some of our PRC home made cars.
If you really want to find out why the IMSA GT2 cars are so fast, I know a chief engineer from one of the top teams (red and silver "I want money, that's what I want cars")... he said he will be visiting with us up at Sears Point this weekend, and perhaps you could ask him.
The track is low grip compared to other places according to some pros with whom I have spoken. And there is a lot of sand that gets on the track, which doesn't happen at every circuit.
Mr. Ichiban is right about a range in driver skills... he seems to have a keen insight.
I was down there Friday for a few hours and spoke to several Cup car drivers. The represent a range of experience and skill, and budget. Hopefully a few of them will come and join us at Sears Point this weekend for the PRC season-ender. It could be interesting to see how they do against some of our PRC home made cars.
If you really want to find out why the IMSA GT2 cars are so fast, I know a chief engineer from one of the top teams (red and silver "I want money, that's what I want cars")... he said he will be visiting with us up at Sears Point this weekend, and perhaps you could ask him.
10-20-2008, 01:32 PM
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a GT2 RSR costs between 392k and 435k depending on euro exchange, and they're 20-40% cheaper than the other cars in class...
in regards to suspension mods- last time I checked PCA, POC etc guys aren't running $35,000 suspensions (more like 7k for motons) with reps from michelin giving them various compounds of tire...
10-20-2008, 01:37 PM
#23
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I agree. Great points.
The first thing i noticed with the repaving of laguna was that we were slidding all over the place, big push, yet our times were faster. tires were scrubbed clean with NO pickup. Everyone said, the surface was much faster, but felt more slick. ????? anyway, i do feel a lot more bit at Sears Point and the differences between the two tracks are still near the same.
The aero point you make is well taken as well. watching the incar, some of these machines are not even lifting around some of the corners, yet the times down the straights are not much different than some of the club machines.
Brakes and aero, amazing!!
mk
The first thing i noticed with the repaving of laguna was that we were slidding all over the place, big push, yet our times were faster. tires were scrubbed clean with NO pickup. Everyone said, the surface was much faster, but felt more slick. ????? anyway, i do feel a lot more bit at Sears Point and the differences between the two tracks are still near the same.
The aero point you make is well taken as well. watching the incar, some of these machines are not even lifting around some of the corners, yet the times down the straights are not much different than some of the club machines.
Brakes and aero, amazing!!
mk
a few observations from watching every session of practice as well as talking to about 15 of the ALMS drivers...
race pace and qualifying pace are quite different...in imsa GT3, about 9 people ran their fastest race laps from 1:29.220- 1:30.297. nobody broke 1:29, and most of the field was in the 1:31 range as their FASTEST race laps.
the michelin people have nailed the tires this year, and tires being a technology means that they can take leaps and bounds ahead at random intervals. ALMS drivers are very happy.
the track is slick compared to road atlanta or road america. fine for street type cars, but when you pull over 2g's (gt2) or well over 3.5 (lmp) you need a lot more grip on the surface than a street car, or even an older cup car.
there are some straight up hacks in imsa gt3, imsa challenge (prototypes), and ALMS. some guy spun unassisted in his imsa gt3 4 times in the same race. WTF?????
HP/weight of club cars vs pro cars is completely irrelevant. they might weigh the same and have similar HP- but those guys (especially the pratt&miller GT1 car) have unbelievable AERO- maybe I'm wrong but let me know if any POC race cars can churn out and hold 2 Lateral G's in Turn 4 @ LS. or 2.5G's in T9.
ergo: AERO+TIRES= waaaaaaaay faster.
add to that drivers who really are much better (especially on the brakes)...and you've got insane lap times.
race pace and qualifying pace are quite different...in imsa GT3, about 9 people ran their fastest race laps from 1:29.220- 1:30.297. nobody broke 1:29, and most of the field was in the 1:31 range as their FASTEST race laps.
the michelin people have nailed the tires this year, and tires being a technology means that they can take leaps and bounds ahead at random intervals. ALMS drivers are very happy.
the track is slick compared to road atlanta or road america. fine for street type cars, but when you pull over 2g's (gt2) or well over 3.5 (lmp) you need a lot more grip on the surface than a street car, or even an older cup car.
there are some straight up hacks in imsa gt3, imsa challenge (prototypes), and ALMS. some guy spun unassisted in his imsa gt3 4 times in the same race. WTF?????
HP/weight of club cars vs pro cars is completely irrelevant. they might weigh the same and have similar HP- but those guys (especially the pratt&miller GT1 car) have unbelievable AERO- maybe I'm wrong but let me know if any POC race cars can churn out and hold 2 Lateral G's in Turn 4 @ LS. or 2.5G's in T9.
ergo: AERO+TIRES= waaaaaaaay faster.
add to that drivers who really are much better (especially on the brakes)...and you've got insane lap times.
10-20-2008, 01:40 PM
#24
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I'm so out of touch with the good stuff. the technology has just gone so far!
I guess i shouldnt compare a 20 year old street car with some bolt on koni $1k suspension kit with no tuning to a million dollar technology team and their hardware!!
mk
I guess i shouldnt compare a 20 year old street car with some bolt on koni $1k suspension kit with no tuning to a million dollar technology team and their hardware!!
mk
mark, Fyi:
a GT2 RSR costs between 392k and 435k depending on euro exchange, and they're 20-40% cheaper than the other cars in class...
in regards to suspension mods- last time I checked PCA, POC etc guys aren't running $35,000 suspensions (more like 7k for motons) with reps from michelin giving them various compounds of tire...
a GT2 RSR costs between 392k and 435k depending on euro exchange, and they're 20-40% cheaper than the other cars in class...
in regards to suspension mods- last time I checked PCA, POC etc guys aren't running $35,000 suspensions (more like 7k for motons) with reps from michelin giving them various compounds of tire...
10-20-2008, 02:19 PM
#25
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By the way Bryan,
Ive been running the same times in my 15 year old car for 7 years now. The times havent changed much, because the car hasnt changed much. (1:40.2 in 2002 and near that time until the track was paved in '06) (and still driven to the track both ways for 7 years, 105 race days with no DNF's)
However, look at the 2000 times at speed WC GT, there was some hot cars driven by guys like:
fitzgerald porsche cup 1:36
borcheller saleen SR 1:36
bill cooper C5 vet 1:36
derek bell turbo audi 1:37
archer viper 1:37
heinrcy vet 1:37
yet the track hadnt changed a bit when the touring cars cam through in 2005 and were running faster than these times!! why??? The equipment just keeps on getting better and better.
so are you going to smack down these guys for running WC touring times??? we are talking pumped C5 vets, vipers and the GT3 Cup cars!!
I think you are discounting how much the cars of today have evolved. Even your E36 is 10 years newer than the car I race . Can you lay down a SpeedTouring car time at a track near you , mid pack?
mk
Ive been running the same times in my 15 year old car for 7 years now. The times havent changed much, because the car hasnt changed much.
(1:40.2 in 2002 and near that time until the track was paved in '06) (and still driven to the track both ways for 7 years, 105 race days with no DNF's)However, look at the 2000 times at speed WC GT, there was some hot cars driven by guys like:
fitzgerald porsche cup 1:36
borcheller saleen SR 1:36
bill cooper C5 vet 1:36
derek bell turbo audi 1:37
archer viper 1:37
heinrcy vet 1:37
yet the track hadnt changed a bit when the touring cars cam through in 2005 and were running faster than these times!! why??? The equipment just keeps on getting better and better.
so are you going to smack down these guys for running WC touring times??? we are talking pumped C5 vets, vipers and the GT3 Cup cars!!
I think you are discounting how much the cars of today have evolved. Even your E36 is 10 years newer than the car I race . Can you lay down a SpeedTouring car time at a track near you , mid pack?
mk
10-20-2008, 02:40 PM
#27
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10-20-2008, 02:40 PM
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Knowing the times of both Bryan and Speed cars at VIR I am very certain that not only would he be on poll with the car in his avatar the real question would be how far up the field he would lap them in 20 laps.
EDIT: And he beats me to it by a second.
The car is very fast and extremely well driven.
10-20-2008, 02:59 PM
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Now, the point of this was that even with a car that is superior, usually good drivers will be within a second or so of each other. Randy also raced the owners other faster car, (evo turbo w 500hp) who is a decent club racer and only posted the same time. Remember, Pobst had a lot of experience with 4x4 big hp cars running the Audi RS6 in WCGT. We talked about the owners car after the race and he said there was not much time left to be found with it and he liked driving it.
Mark, I've been around this forum for a few years. It just seems like you're constantly comparing yourself to some Pro, talking about how you're almost as fast and then using some handicapping system to explain why you are really doing one hell of a job to keep up because your car is so slow. We read about your World Challenge glory days, where you tell us if you had only had a better car, you would have been running for the podium. It's all starting to sound very GhettoRacerish (Frank also seemed to have a thing for comparing himself to Pobst)...
The truth of the matter is that your videos, which is all I have to go on, don't give me much confidence in your ability to drive a car quickly. Perhaps you really are an excellent driver...why not rent a MX-5 Cup car or a Koni ride and prove it on an even playing field? No more handicapping, no more excuses for 20 year old bushings, etc.
BTW, if your car really does have 20 year old rubber bushings, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE change them, if not for your safety, for the safety of those who share the track with you. Rubber doesn't last 20 years, especially not in a race car environment.