944/924 VS 911.........
09-23-2008, 12:33 AM
#47
09-23-2008, 12:36 AM
#48
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The fact that this year I have been running a 911, and the two previous I'd been running 944's of different sorts might just offer some perspective to the topic at hand ("944/924 VS 911")...... 
....and actually it helps more than you could imagine. Tell me, when you have a question relating to racing do you have someone who raced pro around pretty much 24/7 to ask? Until you've experienced that for 19 years I think you could refrain from judgment....
....and actually it helps more than you could imagine. Tell me, when you have a question relating to racing do you have someone who raced pro around pretty much 24/7 to ask? Until you've experienced that for 19 years I think you could refrain from judgment....
LOL....
Mtosi early 911, central seating with torsion bar rear end ... no deadly lift and burn here ...
Last edited by A.Wayne; 09-23-2008 at 01:00 AM.
11-12-2008, 07:07 AM
#49
Rennlist Member
^^ How Clarkson fitted into that beggars belief??
So anyway, what did the OP wind up going with?
From afar, I would also say that the change in rules seems to have swung in favour of the 911 platform IMHO. Another big line in the sand is forced induction. The 951 has PLENTY of potential and can prove to be reliable in the right hands. When you enter turbocharged rear engine Porsches, I imagine the $$ start to climb rapidly. The GT3 is a fantastic car made for the track but to be competitive you need deep pockets.
In order of $ outlay over speed I would guesstimate:
924
944
SC
968
911...
944t
GT3 etc
GT2
So anyway, what did the OP wind up going with?
From afar, I would also say that the change in rules seems to have swung in favour of the 911 platform IMHO. Another big line in the sand is forced induction. The 951 has PLENTY of potential and can prove to be reliable in the right hands. When you enter turbocharged rear engine Porsches, I imagine the $$ start to climb rapidly. The GT3 is a fantastic car made for the track but to be competitive you need deep pockets.
In order of $ outlay over speed I would guesstimate:
924
944
SC
968
911...
944t
GT3 etc
GT2
11-12-2008, 08:54 AM
#50
Lifetime Rennlist Member
I usually avoid the good Doctor's threads but I am going to jump into this one and share THE LESSON. It took me quite a few years and lots of coaching to finally understand that there when you get down to it, there is really only one lesson to be learned in driving fast.
In the grand scheme of things (range of cars) a 911 and 924/944 are fundamentally the same. They are both production based cars with soft suspensions and virtually no downforce. As a beginner, we learn techniques to make one of these go rather quickly around the track. Beginners/Intermediates become fixated on techniques and how their car is unique. And with the focus on technique, they are unique. What works in a 911 does not necessarily work in a 944.
I have had the privilege of driving a very broad range of cars - from street 911's to 944s, FWD sedans, 500+ HP street monsters, Sports racers and formula cars with no downforce, high downforce cars (far more downforce than weight) and even had a Lincoln Continental and Diesel Excursion doing fairly hot laps on the track. With that broad experience, and with the help of some great coaches I have managed quick laps in all of them. And I have learned that there is really only one lesson to understand in order to drive any car quickly.
THE LESSON - You only real job as the driver is to manage the platform. That is, manage the weight distribution of the car. For any corner with any car, you are trying to balance the car as best you can. Now what you do to cause that differs between different cars and changes as both track conditions and car conditions change. How do you think that pros jump from a ALMS P2 to a WC sedan to a street car and are fast immediately. How can a pro do near lap record times in any of these the first time out without "learning" the special techniques of that car? It is because all they are doing is managing the weight. They have learned a bunch of techniques - trail braking, LFB, tossing the car, throttle steering, etc, etc but they are focused on weight distribution. But the newer driver does not understand that so they are entirely focused on technique (the inputs to the car) rather than the results.
The answer to your question Doc is that there is no answer. For the newer driver, they will continue to insist that one is easier/faster/better. Well an F1 car is faster than a 944 but what does that matter. You drive whatever you have to the best of your ability. The key is to drive cars, not just talk about the differences. If you, or anyone else, gets the chance to really expand the range of cars you can drive, and manage to drive quickly in all of them, you will start to see the fundamental truth of THE LESSON, as taught to me by many champion drivers over the years.
In the grand scheme of things (range of cars) a 911 and 924/944 are fundamentally the same. They are both production based cars with soft suspensions and virtually no downforce. As a beginner, we learn techniques to make one of these go rather quickly around the track. Beginners/Intermediates become fixated on techniques and how their car is unique. And with the focus on technique, they are unique. What works in a 911 does not necessarily work in a 944.
I have had the privilege of driving a very broad range of cars - from street 911's to 944s, FWD sedans, 500+ HP street monsters, Sports racers and formula cars with no downforce, high downforce cars (far more downforce than weight) and even had a Lincoln Continental and Diesel Excursion doing fairly hot laps on the track. With that broad experience, and with the help of some great coaches I have managed quick laps in all of them. And I have learned that there is really only one lesson to understand in order to drive any car quickly.
THE LESSON - You only real job as the driver is to manage the platform. That is, manage the weight distribution of the car. For any corner with any car, you are trying to balance the car as best you can. Now what you do to cause that differs between different cars and changes as both track conditions and car conditions change. How do you think that pros jump from a ALMS P2 to a WC sedan to a street car and are fast immediately. How can a pro do near lap record times in any of these the first time out without "learning" the special techniques of that car? It is because all they are doing is managing the weight. They have learned a bunch of techniques - trail braking, LFB, tossing the car, throttle steering, etc, etc but they are focused on weight distribution. But the newer driver does not understand that so they are entirely focused on technique (the inputs to the car) rather than the results.
The answer to your question Doc is that there is no answer. For the newer driver, they will continue to insist that one is easier/faster/better. Well an F1 car is faster than a 944 but what does that matter. You drive whatever you have to the best of your ability. The key is to drive cars, not just talk about the differences. If you, or anyone else, gets the chance to really expand the range of cars you can drive, and manage to drive quickly in all of them, you will start to see the fundamental truth of THE LESSON, as taught to me by many champion drivers over the years.
11-12-2008, 10:19 AM
#51
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I usually avoid the good Doctor's threads but I am going to jump into this one and share THE LESSON. It took me quite a few years and lots of coaching to finally understand that there when you get down to it, there is really only one lesson to be learned in driving fast.
In the grand scheme of things (range of cars) a 911 and 924/944 are fundamentally the same. They are both production based cars with soft suspensions and virtually no downforce. As a beginner, we learn techniques to make one of these go rather quickly around the track. Beginners/Intermediates become fixated on techniques and how their car is unique. And with the focus on technique, they are unique. What works in a 911 does not necessarily work in a 944.
I have had the privilege of driving a very broad range of cars - from street 911's to 944s, FWD sedans, 500+ HP street monsters, Sports racers and formula cars with no downforce, high downforce cars (far more downforce than weight) and even had a Lincoln Continental and Diesel Excursion doing fairly hot laps on the track. With that broad experience, and with the help of some great coaches I have managed quick laps in all of them. And I have learned that there is really only one lesson to understand in order to drive any car quickly.
THE LESSON - You only real job as the driver is to manage the platform. That is, manage the weight distribution of the car. For any corner with any car, you are trying to balance the car as best you can. Now what you do to cause that differs between different cars and changes as both track conditions and car conditions change. How do you think that pros jump from a ALMS P2 to a WC sedan to a street car and are fast immediately. How can a pro do near lap record times in any of these the first time out without "learning" the special techniques of that car? It is because all they are doing is managing the weight. They have learned a bunch of techniques - trail braking, LFB, tossing the car, throttle steering, etc, etc but they are focused on weight distribution. But the newer driver does not understand that so they are entirely focused on technique (the inputs to the car) rather than the results.
The answer to your question Doc is that there is no answer. For the newer driver, they will continue to insist that one is easier/faster/better. Well an F1 car is faster than a 944 but what does that matter. You drive whatever you have to the best of your ability. The key is to drive cars, not just talk about the differences. If you, or anyone else, gets the chance to really expand the range of cars you can drive, and manage to drive quickly in all of them, you will start to see the fundamental truth of THE LESSON, as taught to me by many champion drivers over the years.
In the grand scheme of things (range of cars) a 911 and 924/944 are fundamentally the same. They are both production based cars with soft suspensions and virtually no downforce. As a beginner, we learn techniques to make one of these go rather quickly around the track. Beginners/Intermediates become fixated on techniques and how their car is unique. And with the focus on technique, they are unique. What works in a 911 does not necessarily work in a 944.
I have had the privilege of driving a very broad range of cars - from street 911's to 944s, FWD sedans, 500+ HP street monsters, Sports racers and formula cars with no downforce, high downforce cars (far more downforce than weight) and even had a Lincoln Continental and Diesel Excursion doing fairly hot laps on the track. With that broad experience, and with the help of some great coaches I have managed quick laps in all of them. And I have learned that there is really only one lesson to understand in order to drive any car quickly.
THE LESSON - You only real job as the driver is to manage the platform. That is, manage the weight distribution of the car. For any corner with any car, you are trying to balance the car as best you can. Now what you do to cause that differs between different cars and changes as both track conditions and car conditions change. How do you think that pros jump from a ALMS P2 to a WC sedan to a street car and are fast immediately. How can a pro do near lap record times in any of these the first time out without "learning" the special techniques of that car? It is because all they are doing is managing the weight. They have learned a bunch of techniques - trail braking, LFB, tossing the car, throttle steering, etc, etc but they are focused on weight distribution. But the newer driver does not understand that so they are entirely focused on technique (the inputs to the car) rather than the results.
The answer to your question Doc is that there is no answer. For the newer driver, they will continue to insist that one is easier/faster/better. Well an F1 car is faster than a 944 but what does that matter. You drive whatever you have to the best of your ability. The key is to drive cars, not just talk about the differences. If you, or anyone else, gets the chance to really expand the range of cars you can drive, and manage to drive quickly in all of them, you will start to see the fundamental truth of THE LESSON, as taught to me by many champion drivers over the years.
11-12-2008, 11:40 AM
#52
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I usually avoid the good Doctor's threads but I am going to jump into this one and share THE LESSON. It took me quite a few years and lots of coaching to finally understand that there when you get down to it, there is really only one lesson to be learned in driving fast.
In the grand scheme of things (range of cars) a 911 and 924/944 are fundamentally the same. They are both production based cars with soft suspensions and virtually no downforce. As a beginner, we learn techniques to make one of these go rather quickly around the track. Beginners/Intermediates become fixated on techniques and how their car is unique. And with the focus on technique, they are unique. What works in a 911 does not necessarily work in a 944.
I have had the privilege of driving a very broad range of cars - from street 911's to 944s, FWD sedans, 500+ HP street monsters, Sports racers and formula cars with no downforce, high downforce cars (far more downforce than weight) and even had a Lincoln Continental and Diesel Excursion doing fairly hot laps on the track. With that broad experience, and with the help of some great coaches I have managed quick laps in all of them. And I have learned that there is really only one lesson to understand in order to drive any car quickly.
THE LESSON - You only real job as the driver is to manage the platform. That is, manage the weight distribution of the car. For any corner with any car, you are trying to balance the car as best you can. Now what you do to cause that differs between different cars and changes as both track conditions and car conditions change. How do you think that pros jump from a ALMS P2 to a WC sedan to a street car and are fast immediately. How can a pro do near lap record times in any of these the first time out without "learning" the special techniques of that car? It is because all they are doing is managing the weight. They have learned a bunch of techniques - trail braking, LFB, tossing the car, throttle steering, etc, etc but they are focused on weight distribution. But the newer driver does not understand that so they are entirely focused on technique (the inputs to the car) rather than the results.
The answer to your question Doc is that there is no answer. For the newer driver, they will continue to insist that one is easier/faster/better. Well an F1 car is faster than a 944 but what does that matter. You drive whatever you have to the best of your ability. The key is to drive cars, not just talk about the differences. If you, or anyone else, gets the chance to really expand the range of cars you can drive, and manage to drive quickly in all of them, you will start to see the fundamental truth of THE LESSON, as taught to me by many champion drivers over the years.
In the grand scheme of things (range of cars) a 911 and 924/944 are fundamentally the same. They are both production based cars with soft suspensions and virtually no downforce. As a beginner, we learn techniques to make one of these go rather quickly around the track. Beginners/Intermediates become fixated on techniques and how their car is unique. And with the focus on technique, they are unique. What works in a 911 does not necessarily work in a 944.
I have had the privilege of driving a very broad range of cars - from street 911's to 944s, FWD sedans, 500+ HP street monsters, Sports racers and formula cars with no downforce, high downforce cars (far more downforce than weight) and even had a Lincoln Continental and Diesel Excursion doing fairly hot laps on the track. With that broad experience, and with the help of some great coaches I have managed quick laps in all of them. And I have learned that there is really only one lesson to understand in order to drive any car quickly.
THE LESSON - You only real job as the driver is to manage the platform. That is, manage the weight distribution of the car. For any corner with any car, you are trying to balance the car as best you can. Now what you do to cause that differs between different cars and changes as both track conditions and car conditions change. How do you think that pros jump from a ALMS P2 to a WC sedan to a street car and are fast immediately. How can a pro do near lap record times in any of these the first time out without "learning" the special techniques of that car? It is because all they are doing is managing the weight. They have learned a bunch of techniques - trail braking, LFB, tossing the car, throttle steering, etc, etc but they are focused on weight distribution. But the newer driver does not understand that so they are entirely focused on technique (the inputs to the car) rather than the results.
The answer to your question Doc is that there is no answer. For the newer driver, they will continue to insist that one is easier/faster/better. Well an F1 car is faster than a 944 but what does that matter. You drive whatever you have to the best of your ability. The key is to drive cars, not just talk about the differences. If you, or anyone else, gets the chance to really expand the range of cars you can drive, and manage to drive quickly in all of them, you will start to see the fundamental truth of THE LESSON, as taught to me by many champion drivers over the years.
11-12-2008, 11:48 AM
#53
Rennlist Member
In the grand scheme of things (range of cars) a 911 and 924/944 are fundamentally the same. They are both production based cars with soft suspensions and virtually no downforce. As a beginner, we learn techniques to make one of these go rather quickly around the track. Beginners/Intermediates become fixated on techniques and how their car is unique. And with the focus on technique, they are unique. What works in a 911 does not necessarily work in a 944.
THE LESSON - You only real job as the driver is to manage the platform. That is, manage the weight distribution of the car. For any corner with any car, you are trying to balance the car as best you can. Now what you do to cause that differs between different cars and changes as both track conditions and car conditions change. How do you think that pros jump from a ALMS P2 to a WC sedan to a street car and are fast immediately. How can a pro do near lap record times in any of these the first time out without "learning" the special techniques of that car? It is because all they are doing is managing the weight. They have learned a bunch of techniques - trail braking, LFB, tossing the car, throttle steering, etc, etc but they are focused on weight distribution. But the newer driver does not understand that so they are entirely focused on technique (the inputs to the car) rather than the results.
The answer to your question Doc is that there is no answer. For the newer driver, they will continue to insist that one is easier/faster/better. Well an F1 car is faster than a 944 but what does that matter. You drive whatever you have to the best of your ability. The key is to drive cars, not just talk about the differences. If you, or anyone else, gets the chance to really expand the range of cars you can drive, and manage to drive quickly in all of them, you will start to see the fundamental truth of THE LESSON, as taught to me by many champion drivers over the years.
THE LESSON - You only real job as the driver is to manage the platform. That is, manage the weight distribution of the car. For any corner with any car, you are trying to balance the car as best you can. Now what you do to cause that differs between different cars and changes as both track conditions and car conditions change. How do you think that pros jump from a ALMS P2 to a WC sedan to a street car and are fast immediately. How can a pro do near lap record times in any of these the first time out without "learning" the special techniques of that car? It is because all they are doing is managing the weight. They have learned a bunch of techniques - trail braking, LFB, tossing the car, throttle steering, etc, etc but they are focused on weight distribution. But the newer driver does not understand that so they are entirely focused on technique (the inputs to the car) rather than the results.
The answer to your question Doc is that there is no answer. For the newer driver, they will continue to insist that one is easier/faster/better. Well an F1 car is faster than a 944 but what does that matter. You drive whatever you have to the best of your ability. The key is to drive cars, not just talk about the differences. If you, or anyone else, gets the chance to really expand the range of cars you can drive, and manage to drive quickly in all of them, you will start to see the fundamental truth of THE LESSON, as taught to me by many champion drivers over the years.
In skiing we try to get younger athletes to spend time on all sorts of skis. Not just their usual slalom/giant slalom setups, but to freeski on different widths, flexes, sidecuts, and also to spend some unstructured time on speed skis (SuperG, DH) to challenge their feel, touch, and adaptation skills. It's precisely the same argument you're making with cars. Only when you've been exposed to a broad range of cars (skis), tracks (hills), and weather/grip (both
) can you really learn the fundamentals that are independent of the sled you're driving.
11-13-2008, 02:58 AM
#54
Rennlist Member
Mark,
Of course what you say is true and I respect your experience. I don't think it is actually answering the question though. As stated by AW, there are horses for courses and personal preference. My guess is that the OP was asking for first hand experience / opinions to help him formulate a basis of decision. It's true that better drivers can just get in and go. I'm sure most here on this forum would think they have some of this ability. I know I do.....think that...lol.
My guess is that if you have entered the Porsche phenom via a rear engined car, you will naturally be biased for these platforms (often verging on downright disdain for anything else unfortunately), however if you've entered as via the transaxle models due to finances for example, you will know just how good these cars can be. I bet that if the powers that be had decided to release all the front engined Porsches under the Audi label, they would be recognised as a better car amongst many of the cognoscenti. I guarantee that if any of you rear engine only guys got in a well sorted and modified 951, you would be in for a bit of a shock at just how good these models can be. It's not that I don't love the extra tactile involvement of a rear engine car, I do, and would love to have a few different versions. Perhaps if those damned Sub Prime crooks had never wreaked their havoc we all might have had a chance to experience the 'other side'
Of course what you say is true and I respect your experience. I don't think it is actually answering the question though. As stated by AW, there are horses for courses and personal preference. My guess is that the OP was asking for first hand experience / opinions to help him formulate a basis of decision. It's true that better drivers can just get in and go. I'm sure most here on this forum would think they have some of this ability. I know I do.....think that...lol.
My guess is that if you have entered the Porsche phenom via a rear engined car, you will naturally be biased for these platforms (often verging on downright disdain for anything else unfortunately), however if you've entered as via the transaxle models due to finances for example, you will know just how good these cars can be. I bet that if the powers that be had decided to release all the front engined Porsches under the Audi label, they would be recognised as a better car amongst many of the cognoscenti. I guarantee that if any of you rear engine only guys got in a well sorted and modified 951, you would be in for a bit of a shock at just how good these models can be. It's not that I don't love the extra tactile involvement of a rear engine car, I do, and would love to have a few different versions. Perhaps if those damned Sub Prime crooks had never wreaked their havoc we all might have had a chance to experience the 'other side'
11-13-2008, 10:53 PM
#55
Instructor
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Automobile Magazine, June 1988, 911 Turbo versus 944 Turbo S. Bill Adams & Dereck Bell, both with fair drovers credentials. Willow Springs. 944 turbo put 2 seconds, 1:41 vs. 1:43 on the 911 Turbo. Straight up, street tires.
