C.J. Ichiban

I realize I'm shortening your quote but this is precisely why instead of a 1980 SC racecar I went with a MX-5 cup car. The idea of relying on possibly dodgy "vintage" parts and commeasurate services along with the increased safety of modern vehicles drew me away from the old stuff. I'm always ogling over the torsion bar racers at track events, but they seem to break so often that I'll probably steer clear until I own a shop myself one day.

it is true that a 997 gt3 has so much mechanical grip, it's very easy to drive fast. However, if everyone is driving 997 GT3s, the best driver will still be the fastest. If you guys are lucky enough to have a lot of cars in your class for PCA events with similar specs, it's got to be a ton of fun. Locally, most of the guys at the track have either new stuff (996gt3, 997S, TT, 997GT3, Zo6, Vipers, etc) or spec miata or spec boxster. I only know of 3 torsion bar 911s at our local track and 2 of them are 60 year old dudes that are basically rolling chicanes.

mark kibort

One of the oldest fastest porsches with its original, unmodified engine, is the Holbert 928. (1:38.7 at Laguna). 101 race days, no DNFs. Porsche really did their homework on this car!

One of the oldest and fastest porsches in any PCA class new or old, is the Anderson 928 with the stroker engine. 2:17 at Road America. (although this chassis has a lot of modifications, it still runs the stock ECU controlling the larger displacement engine)

So, old buggers can run with the new equip without any more issues than they have!

mk

earlyapex

Go gett'um Mark. Put your dentures in before setting off for qualifying.

Sean F

Actually, you could just ask them - a bunch post here. In fact, one of the fastest guys ever in an SC is now one of the fastest guys in a 6 cup. A significant number of the fast cup car guys started in the older cars.

If anyone would like to offer me a no risk drive in a 996 GT3 or a 6 cup I'd be happy to take them up on it as would most guys I know who race in the old cars.

mark kibort

My old rig has been great for 7 full racing seasons, never missing a race and no DNFs. This is a car with stock everything, except gutted with a set of headers as the only engine mod. All bushings are stock.
101 race days with nothing really more than brake pads and used tires every year. my only expenses are getting to the race, entry fees and gas.

Keep in mind, this engine hasnt been apart since it was made in 1986!

I think the only mechanical things I've replaced in 7 years is a couple of wheel bearings, a defective waterpump and defective cam sprocket.

mk

mark kibort

It's dentures are in, putting in some used brake pads now too, (hey, the economy is tough right now ) and heading off to Thunderhill for race #9 next weekend to go after the young guys, usually 20 years newer! Yes, im still knocking on wood!!!

mk

deep_uv

For me it's partly nostalgia. I love the old 911's because I lusted after them growing up. The 1980 SC I'm building up now was the **** the year I graduated from high school and entered college. I would see one and wonder how I would ever own something like that. Plus, I think learning how to drive a "harder to drive car" will make me a better driver going forward.



CJ, I'd be remiss not to point out that there's lots of old 911's out there. The Buckley guys are from the DFW area. Come on out to the club races, there's tons of torsion bar cars running in the highly competitive D and E classes. I'm building a D car right now. These shots are from this year at ECR and TWS. The last shot is from a DE in the spirit of the thread. Point being, most of these guys were out at the many DE's too. Photo credits to Cupcake.

Chris M.

Stock shocks, sway bars, etc...??

Sean F

Why do the numbers for all those cars that are lined up start with 7?

race911

You want to see where the torsion bar chassis truly stack up? Last PRC race @ Sears 3 weeks ago: http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=865492

Note the GTS cars are the "Spec 911" class. (If you backtrack and look for RACE results, understand they use a split start. So that's why I linked to qualifying.)

For point of comparision, Masuo's GT3 car is about 1900 lbs, 3.4L, and that time seems to be about 2-3 seconds off what he can do. Matt's is, I think, running a 4.0 now. (He used to race IMSA in the 80's-90's with truly home built, no budget cars and was damn fast.)

deep_uv

I guess it's a Buckley thing. Their fearless leader, Jim Buckley, is #711 (blue car on pole at the TWS shot). #737 is Jeff "Cupcake" Frazier - he works on 737's for a living and works for Buckley part time. Other than that, I guess they all just followed suit. Good bunch of guys.

JackOlsen

Faster and slower at a DE is pretty straightforward. Any instructor will point out that driver skill and experience is the biggest factor of them all. Put Patrick Long in a 2-liter 911 and he'll embarrass most of the drivers out there.

Second to that is the level of prep, tuning and such that have been done to a car, regardless of its age. My 1972 911, even with its 964 motor, is not faster than a (415-hp?) 997 GT RS. And I am not a faster driver than Johannes van Overbeek -- not by a country mile. But his Thunderhill lap times in a GT3 RS were 1-2 seconds slower than mine in my old car, even with him on equal-or-better tires. Why is that? Well, he was driving a stock car as it left the factory showroom -- no changes to the suspension at all. My car has some development time in it. If you gave him a day to tweak the seetings on the RS, I'm sure he could knock 5 seconds or more off his time. In a GT3 RSR, set up for him by his ALMS team, he was running 15 seconds faster than my times -- something I could never hope to touch, even if I got a GT3 RSR.

And even so, he and I weren't driving on the same day or in the same conditions. So it's not an apples-to-apples comparison, and -- in the bigger picture -- true apples-to-apples comparisons are rarely possible at all. Cars are driven with different degrees of skill. Cars are set up with different degrees of skill, for different drivers. Whether the car is older or newer, with less or more power -- these are minor factors by comparison. Put a good driver together with a good builder and a good suspension guy, and you can make just about any car fast.

sechsgang

Different strokes for different folks I guess...haha

hailwood

I will put my money on Rjay in his old car against pretty much any DE guy in their new car. In fact there were only 2 cars at Tremblant faster than him out of maybe 100 running.

Like i said it is fun to go out and tromp the new equipment.

And for you guys wondering what a old car driver can do in a new car, a lot more than a guy who drives a gt3 can do in a 86 911.

driving with no anti lock, no power steering, no traction control, no electronic suspension management ect makes you a hell of a lot better driver than the newer cars. not to say that you cant get the same skills driving both cars but the older cars make you learn fast or go home because they do not highlight the greatness of the equipment they highlight the ability of the driver.

sechsgang

It seems the talk has shifted to the drivers solely...and how they learned. In which case, yes, some of those that learned in the older cars will be able to go fast in the newer ones...but then there are those who learned in the newer cars and may have been taught some old school style but with new school technology (NOT talking about traction control/stability control but suspension technology and chassis engineering etc)...IMHO, this is quite an effective combo...