MTosi

I'm laughing soooo hard right now, you don't know how long I spent looking for those. I found the FIA F1 ones and was gunna use those, but I was striking out trying to find the Lemans ones

15.4.1 - All cars must be equipped with three areas of padding
for the driver’s head protection which :
a/ are so arranged that they can be removed from the car
as one part ;
b/ are located by two horizontal pegs behind the driver'
head and two fixings at the front corners which are
clearly indicated and easily removable without tools
(open cars only) ;
c/ are made from a material specified by the FIA ;
d/ are fitted with a cover manufactured from 60-240 g/m2
materials which use suitable thermo-setting resin
systems;
e/ are positioned so as to be the first point of contact for
the driver's helmet in the event of an impact projecting
his head towards them during an accident.
15.4.2 - The first area of padding for the driver’s head must be
positioned behind him and be between 75 mm and 90 mm
thick over an area of at least 40000 mm². In order to provide
a better force distribution, the area of the survival cell
supporting the foam may be increased by adding material
This material must be glued and within a maximum of 105
mm backwards from the foremost point of the secondary
structure.
15.4.3 - The two further areas of padding for the driver’s head
must be positioned directly alongside each side of his
helmet.
The upper surfaces of these areas of padding must be at
least as high as the protective structure for the driver (see
Art. 16.3) over their entire length.
Each area of padding must be between 75 mm and 90 mm
thick over an area of at least 25000 mm² and may have a
radius of 10 mm along its upper inboard edge. When
calculating their area, any part which is greater than 75 mm
thick and which lies between the front face of the rear area of
padding and the furthest forward part of the driver's helmet
whilst he is seated normally, will be taken into account.
The thickness will be measured perpendicular to the car
centreline.
15.4.4 – Open car
Forward of the side areas of padding, further cockpit padding
must be provided on each side of the protective structure for the
driver (see Art. 16.3). The purpose of the additional padding is
to afford protection to the driver's head in the event of an
oblique frontal impact and it must therefore be made from the
same material as the other three areas of padding.
These extensions must :
- be positioned symmetrically about the centreline of the
protective structure for the driver and form a continuation
of the side areas of padding ;
- be positioned with their upper surfaces at least as high
as the protective structure for the driver over their entire
length;
- have a radius on their upper inboard edge of no more
than 10mm ;
- be positioned such that the distance between the two is
no less than 360mm ;
- be as high as practicable within the constraints of driver
comfort.
15.4.5 - All of the padding described above must be so installed
that, if movement of the driver's head, in any expected
trajectory during an accident, were to compress the foam fully
at any point, his helmet would not make contact with any
structural part of the car.
Furthermore, for the benefit of rescue crews, the method for
the removal of the padding described above must be clearly
indicated."
15.4.6 - No part of the padding described above may obscure
sight of any part of the driver's helmet when he is seated
normally and viewed from directly above the car.

It reads more to me like side protection and front/back than top first contact. The roll hoop could be considered as top first protection, but I don't think thats its intention.

FlyingDog

Psst... the rollover hoop is section 16, not 15.

gums

Guys, this sport evolves, that's the beauty of it. Great vintage photo collection, Tosi, thanks for that, but forget going back. That's the way it was, and many of us loved it, but we've learned so much and have to move on.
Further, the comments from Lauda about the downforce cars being so stiff came at a time when the sliding skirts were outlawed as moveable aero devices and so for a year or so the cars were rigidly suspended to maintain ride height. It was awful, but it's not like that anymore either.

Pierre Martins

When a light-weight fast car with a flat undertray becomes airborne at speed it suddenly turns into a kite.

Take away the curb turtles. There's no rocket science in that.

38D

I ain't close to 50 either, but I was a bit older during that time. What you should remember from that era is that pro race drivers died all the time back then. The cars were dangerous, and the safety equipment was no where near what it is today. I once had beers with David Murry up at Watkins Glen. He got to drive a 917 at a vintage race. He said it was the only car he was ever truly scared in.

MTosi

rollover hoops are designed to keep the weight of the car off the drivers head, and in a closed car keep the roof from collapsing when the cars are upside down, or if the car is skidding along on its roof to prevent the same. It's NOT intended for a roof first impact at 100mph if thats what your trying to say.....This is what happens with a roof first impact in an LMP car, where the driver isn't as lucky as the Peugeot driver.....



What does that have to do with lack of downforce or my argument? There is no reason low downforce cars can be safe if not safer, due to slower cornering speeds...

FlyingDog

Gee, was the link really that hard to read? I was even nice enough to tell you which sections the rollhoop is regulated by and you couldn't find them. As Jupeman said, the street goes both ways. Provide some evidence other than 1 anecdotal crash picture.

BTW, like 38D I'm well under 50.

MTosi

What are you getting at or proving?????? you've given me the regs (thank you, I gave up on finding them) I've read them, they describe the roll hoop....which is exactley that a rool hoop, not intended to protect the driver from impacting the wall head first, the dynamics of a car rolling over and landing on its roof are alot different than an airborne roof first impact with a concrete wall.... I'm confused as to what you are suggesting? where in here does it suggest anything other than what it is a rollhoop?

16.1 - Rollover structures :
16.1.1 - Main rollover structures :
a/ Two safety rollover structures (front and rear) are
mandatory.
They must be :
a.1 - At least 660 mm (920 mm for closed cars) at the front
and 1020 mm (open cars only) at the rear above the
reference surface ;
a.2 - Separated a minimum of 860 mm longitudinally (600
mm for closed cars);
a.3 - Covered with fireproof foam (FIA approved) as far as
tubes close to the driver are concerned.
a.4 - Be symmetrical to the longitudinal centreline of the
car.
b/ The driver at the wheel, the helmet must be at a
minimum distance of 80 mm from the line connecting
the top of front and rear rollover structures. (see
drawing n°9).
c/ As viewed from the front, the steering wheel, whatever
its position, must not protrude from the front rollover
structure (open cars only) ;
d/ Should streamlining or fairing cover the front and/or rear
rollover structures its upper part must have a maximum
length of 200 mm (longitudinal measurement) and it
must allow inspection of the mounting areas on the
main structure, by the Scrutineers.
e/ The rear structure must also :
e1 - have a minimum overall length of 300 mm measured
at the level of the mountings on the survival cell.
e.2 - have a minimum height of 165 mm (open cars only)
relative to the secondary rollover structure of the survival
cell, described in article 16.1.2 (see drawing n°9).
e.3 - on a frontal projection, the external sides must form
an angle of 30° minimum to one another (see drawing
n°10).
e.4 – For all the chassis homologated after July 1st, 2007,
the main rollover structures and the secondary rollover
structures must not obscure sight of any part of the engine
(engine block and head cylinders), viewed from directly
above the car.
16.1.2. - Secondary rollover structure :
The part of the survival cell situated rearward of the driver
must form a secondary rollover structure, the purpose of
which is to protect the occupants in the case of a failure of
the main rear rollover structure described in article 16.1.1
above.
Viewed from the front, this structure must be symmetric
about the longitudinal centreline of the car and must always
extend beyond the outline of the driver's helmet.
Its external sides must form an angle of 40° minimum to one
another and its upper part must have a minimum diameter of
280 mm (see drawing n°10).
The secondary rollover structure must have a minimum
height of 855 mm relative to the reference surface.
The minimum frontal section as defined above must be at
105 mm maximum backward the foremost point of the
secondary structure.
The front must be closed. Air intakes for the engine are only
permitted (ACO approval).
16.1.3 - Rollover structures approval :
a/ Every rollover structure must be submitted to the tests
described in appendix 2 and approved by the FIA.
b/ The manufacturers shall give ACO in writing an early
notification of any scheduled test in order that one of its
representatives may eventually attend at manufacturer's
expenses.
c/ The competitor must supply to the ACO a copy of the
FIA approval certificate.


btw that one anecdotal picture of a crash is one where the guy was killed because rollhoops are not intended to protect drivers from upside down impacts at speed, the roll hoop just collapased due to the speed and angle of the impact......

Bull

I'm not close to 50 either.

FlyingDog

Congrats, you still can't read and you haven't provided a single shred of evidence to support your asinine theories.

MTosi

please...enlighten me..... I'm happy to be proven wrong...

you stated that the cars are designed to have roof first protection for an impact of over 120mph into a concrete wall..... you have yet to tell me how you have come to that conclusion, you meerly directed me to the regulations which I read and fail to see how they back of your point at all......

all you have done is called my "theories" idiotic.......could you please offer more insight, rather than simply resorting to insults....... I'm happy to listen....

FlyingDog

1. You haven't provided any evidence to support your asine position.
2. You can't even quote me properly when you have my post quoted. I said asinine, not "idiotic".
3. Read Appendix 2 as I and section 16 referenced. You have completely ignored that 3 times now.

MTosi

asinine- Utterly stupid or silly: asinine behavior

I think idiotic works as a synonym.

Second I've read it three times and looked at the pictures twice. Roll hoop/s are NOT PROTECTION from high speed impacts. The front/rear and sides all have crumple zones (carbon fiber honeycomb) designed to dissipate the impact. There are no crumple zones above the drivers head to prevent the instant transfer of energy like a frontal or side impact. So stop pointing to the section like it proves your point because it doesn't, it simply showes the design of the ROLL HOOP(s) which IS NOT protection from a high speed impact. Protection involves more than just a bar (or two) above the head, protection would be a system of a bar and crumple zones made out of carbon fiber desgined to dissipate the impact. It would be nice if you actually explained yourself so people could understand where you are coming from.

The fact that you are trying to say that the cars are designed to protect a drive from this sort of impact is the realy asinine view point.



Michelle Alboreto (the picture) was killed in an LMP because of this design deficiency, the tire blew, the car went airborne, the car impacted the guardrail upside at well over 100, collapsing the bar and either taking his head off or breaking his neck.

DrJupeman

F1 or Indy doesn't have anything more over the driver's head, right?

MTosi

I don't think any series has designed more than just a roll hoop or set of roll hoops (closed cars) because it has been such a rare occurance for the car to actually impact something up side down. Roll hoops have always been intended simply to support the weight of the car, if it rolls or lands upside down on the ground. Since if the car gets airborne (like an indy car) and lands upside down it is just the force of gravity pulling the car back down to earth.

To put it simply

Indy car flips across the infield landing upside down- equivilent of lifting it upside down 10 ft on crane and dropping it to the ground, which is the type of force a roll hoop is designed for

The Peugeot crash- Putting the car sideways roof first (drivers side facing the ground, roof facing the wall) on the front of a rocket sled, accelerating to 100mph towards a concrete wall, then stopping the sled 10 ft before and having the car shoot into the wall roof first. Roll hoops are NOT DESIGNED for that kind of force.

Do you understand what I'm saying, does that make any sense to you Jupe? or am I losing it?