SundayDriver

If you are going to try to cite history, you should do some research and get it right. The early 90's sports cars made almost 6,000 lbs of downforce at 150 mph - more than 10,000 at their top speeds. The cars of a few years ago make slightly less than half that downforce. I doubt the current cars have doubled the downforce in 3 or 4 years.

When you brush off the driver skills with high downforce cars, I have to ask if you have ever driven a car with more downforce than weight (at say 120 mph)?

There were some great things about the old days, and some not so great things - be careful what you ask for.

MTosi

Where did you get those figures, just curious? I usually refer to "race car aerodynamics: designing for speed" by joseph katz, I used it when I was spending a few weeks at WPI doing a research project on race car aero...... Maybe I was just getting the figures from 956's confused since they certainly didnt develop as much as the Nissian and Toyota GTP's. I don't think anyone knows how much the current cars are generating since none of the manuf. want each other to know, so I just used a conservative estimate at say 110mph..... that being said I don't think the GTP era was awsome, mainly because of the groundeffects. I remember reading a book by niki lauda on the turbo/ground effect era, and he pretty much hated it. The drivers were along for the ride, which I dare to say is similar to the situation now. It certainly takes lots of skills and big brass ones to drive these high downforce cars, but I'd be willing to bet if you asked the drivers, they'd say they could make more of a difference with less downforce

SundayDriver

The best info on sports cars is at http://www.mulsannescorner.com/.

As far as the comment from Lauda - don't confuse one or two aspects with the others. The cars of that era had a few things that drivers hated. They included active suspension that would change the cars characteristics at will, and ground effects that were very dependent on precise ride height to the point that a bump would take away a lot of downforce. Modern race cars have aero packages that are not so edgy.

2BWise

There's a reason why all the new prototypes and F1 cars look so similar. Chassis and suspension design (racing designs) have reached a platue and the only thing left to do is move a suspension a couple tenths of an inch one way or the other. These high end series are the test beds for future production car technology, so why shouldn't the rules be swayed to help push that, but you can't leave the rule too open or a)people will really start getting hurt b)some team will end up with an advantage. The organizers have to keep it safe and fair, but also let the manufacturers push the envelope otherwise they'll leave. Look at Grand-Am, the DP manufacturers list contains no big name production (roadcar) company. That's because they have little to gain. Audi isn't going to go run a "spec" series just to show it can win, no they want to go to a venue where they can ADVERTISE future technology and what better way to do it than build the quickest possible car and win.

The issue of flipping is the reason all the prototypes look like rock crawlers from the profile view. If I'm not mistaken ground clearance was upped in the rules to try and combat this issue. It didn't seem to be an issue two years ago. Obviously the manufacturers have found a way around it to increase downforce. What needs to be done is another rule change to minimize the forces that cause the car to flip when turned sideways

MTosi

Thanks for the site! some how in all my wandering's I had missed it.

It was actually an entire book by lauda on the ground effects era (early 80's pre active suspension), and alot of his distaste for it was due to the fact they had to run the cars insanly stiff with like 4,000-6,000 pound springs all around, and the way the took the bumps. However his main distaste was just for the downforce in general, the job of the driver up to that point had been to get the car around the corner on the limit. However when the ground effects era came it took alot of the ability of the drivers to get around the corner out of their hands, and put it into the hands of the aerodynamicists. It didn't detract from the skill required to get the car around at 100% but it meant the difference in how fast 100% was in the hands of the aerodynamicists NOT the drivers. Which I feel is similar (no identical) to today, the concept is the same, the aero is just refined.

However can we all agree that something needs to be done about the flipping? With the severity of these shunts its only a matter of time before someone gets hurt. I corrected my OP this is actually number SIX on the year according to the Eurosport commentators.

38D

Fenders are aerodynamically superior. Every F1 aero engineer would love to be able to add full body work to their cars.

MTosi

I don't recall saying anything to the contrary. Due to that I was sort of suprised that the Lemans Series cars were a full 15 seconds slower than the F1 cars around Spa.

When the 917's ran the 1000k they were actually quicker than the F1 cars of the era.

2BWise

F1 cars are lighter and more powerful and the Bridgestones are far superior to anything else.

MTosi

All very true, nothing can realy compare to how much R&D/money is spent on F1 cars. I was just expecting maybe say only 7-10 seconds. Then again if they weren't being forced to run big heavy complex diesels, it would be worth at least 5 seconds I think if they allowed them to run unrestricted petrol engines to the same spec they allow the diesels to run at now, they would be within 5 seconds.

On a somewhat unrelated note Dumans (driving a petrol lmp1 car) was so disgusted with the unfair advantage the diesels, he commented that they might as well be LMP 1.5 the way the diesels dissapear down the straights.

Bull

For me YES, and many times, including every Can-Am race in 1972. Several discussions with drivers at the time, including a guy named Follmer and a friend named Milt Minter (may he RIP). Ask George how he liked the early 917s. You will find his answer fairly direct and clear!

Donkey Bop!

MTosi

JEALOUS!

I would love to hear and see a 917 driven properly! nothing against the guys who own them now, but watching guys like Siffert, Elford, Larousee, Donahue, Follmer, Rodriguez etc. must have been something else...

2BWise

Its ashame the ACO is letting the diesel powered cars have such an advantage. I understand trying to push diesel technology, but come on, its absurd the speed differential between the two.

MTosi

Agreed! It would be nice to see Porsche run for an overall victory again, but they have stated until the rules are balanced they are not going to.

I don't get the argument about ACO and LMP and the whole, they should be allowed to have all this downforce because its fast. Well if you continue that line of thinking they should be allowed to make competetive petrol cars, since petrol engines would be faster. So why restrict them with foolish rules benefiting diesels? It's slowing the cars down.

For saftey sake the cars do need to be slowed down eventually. For personally biased reasons (porsche fan) it would be nice as a tribute to how great the 917 was, to allow it to keep the all time record for distance/speed at 5335.313 km and 138 mph over 24 hours, even considering the track has been significantly changed that is an one incredible record. They have been getting close in recent years, barring rain or other unforseen circumstances it is very possible that record will fall this year.

Congo

Guess where Pescarolo Sport tests the aero on the Judd-powered LMP1 car?

A French military base because they don't have the funds to use a wind tunnel.

Note: They finished on the overall podium at Le Mans in 2005-2007.

Around 100,000 people have attended the Mobil 1 Twelve Hours of Sebring for the past several years. How about Grand Am races?

MTosi

I don't know, not very many, whats your point? However 100,000 is still 3X less than 300,000 and it still averages far less than that in T.V. ratings than actual attendance of a race weekend in 1970......