Richard S

Came across this on Youtube....944 hits a tirewall at Thunderhill. Crash happens after 2:30. Looks like a solid hit, anyone know who it was, if he's ok?

Hope its not an Enzo.



Rich

RedlineMan

Gee...

Another video of slow hands. Looks like he was OK, at least. Poor car....

mark kibort

not so much slow hands, but bad timing of the commit. Max G's should have been at the apex, not after it. bummer for him! least he was ok. poor car (and wallet)

mk

Trucho-951

Looks like he took an early apex to me.

mark kibort

early is fine on turn 1. actually, its kind of a perfered line. If he would commited to it, and started loaded up the G's, he would have been just unwinding the wheel on the exit, rather than trying to catch a tank slapper.
EDIT: yeah, that was a little too early, you are right. (but saveable and driveable like in traffic)
mk

turbo96

No injuries. Car needed body work, including a new door, but not too bad. Engine bracket broke and needed replacement. Last session of the day led to lack of concentration and an early apex at high speed-- I think it was 104+ on right side of track, 92 on left and 80 when I hit the grass. Seemed at the time that I was very close to saving it, but things were happening rather quickly. Probably could have done something to avoid the tire wall if I had known it was coming, but I was also trying to avoid abrupt corrections given danger of rollover on the slope.https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif

wanna911

It appears to me on the straight prior to 1 that you look to check and see that your camera is working (I know the look because I do it too), you may have been looking trackside, but that's not a good idea on anything other than a pace lap or warmup lap. At speed on the fastest part of the track may seem like the easiest place to do it, but I forget I have a camera once I'm at speed, you then had to refocus on what you're doing. Maybe if you're going into a hard braking zone and a low speed corner you can get away with that, but that turn looks like one that you need to be on your game long before you get to it.

Just my opinion.

turbo96

Actually, I was looking over at the Trackmate timer to see the time as I crossed start-finish. The timer needs to be re-mounted where I can see it without leaning over. I agree that distractions should be minimized. Of course, I had looked at the time every other lap of the day without turning in early when I got to turn 1.

wanna911

velcro right behind the steering wheel works for me. I think moving it is a good idea regardless. some tracks will be even less friendly for looking so far to see your time. Or just check them after the session.

Either way glad your ok.

mark kibort

You hit the apex at normal corning speeds, its just you didnt put in enough steering input to scrub off addition speed, set the car and turn the car, unfortunately. There is a tremedous amount of braking/cornering force by turning the car a little earlier. same thing can happen at turn 8. Sometimes it goes against your instincts, but you need to turn in early, even though the car might not turn in early. think of almost pitching the car before the turn. Your speeds after your brake tap were around 90mph and obviosly slower as you exited and started to get out of shape. once you had the tank slapper and you were in the dirt, your fate was sealed. too bad there was the tower there with tires. the probably should move it up the hill a bit.
Thunderhill has some fast runnout areas, but this one is a little risky.

Here is someone on a rocket path after turn 8.

mk

Richard S

Good to hear you are OK, that hit sounded hard!

Note to self..."don't go off at T-hill turn 1..."

Rich

schvetkaaks

Did you go both feet in when you started to veer off? I couldn't tell.

As soon as I saw you look to the right when at those speeds, I got a knot in my stomach...

schvetkaaks

I don't know that track, but to me, it still looked like a slightly early apex, and it looked like that car pretty severely understeered that corner, as well - I would imagine it is a front engine car by that reaction. If you panic in an early apex in a mid engine or rear engine car, and step on the gas to pull the rear out, it will oversteer to oblivion at those speeds.

mark kibort

No, he didnt have any understeer, actually, he had a lot of oversteer. he just didnt turn with enough force as he approached Turn 1. Again, in traffic, ive been much more narrow, so its not really an issue for the turn or the car. (front engine or not).
However, for the back to jump out with so little steering input, could be due to him being on real street tires mixed with a pretty high rate of speed for that turn. 90mph at the apex is a pretty good clip for turn 1. we usually hit 125 and bring it down to about 90mph for that turn. Ill have to check again this weekend. I have 3 SCCA races there over this next weekend's memorial day!

I also dont think early apex and adding throttle is an issue for rear engine cars. I think its more of letting off the throttle in high g turns. Ive been around this turn in a pack of 911s on that same turn, with all sorts of different lines, and havent seen any of them do anything other than run 'round the turn. I think its driving fast 101. you need to set the front end, turn while their is grip, and get it pointed in a direction that you can hold on to the road. what happend here because of a gentle and unfinished turn in, the car was pointed off track early, and the grip was unable to correct it at the exit. the tank slapping correction was a result of trying to save it while it was too late. If he caught it early, it could have been a straight off in the dirt save, rather than an over corrected change of direction. Where there was nothing that could be done at that point.

Do a side by side video with this video of Mike Cortney and me running around T-hill on a test day a couple of years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj2wN2BrFjs

mk

Trucho-951

Mark, as I look back at the video, I see from his g-meter that he is under braking in the brake zone, then turning in early, hitting the apex early about 30 ft to 40 ft before the apex berm, then it seems he realizes he is still going too fast to make the trackout, so it appears he lifts, thus oversteeing on exit and countersteering as he tries to save it. I think at that point getting back on the throttle a little to settle the rear and committing to an agricultural ride would have created less drama. .

Hey Mark, great footage of you and that M3 carving thru traffic, I love the way you guys take the T11/T12/T12A chicane.