juddtaylor

I talked to David Cook at length about the track conditions on that Monday at the event (after I spun out on the wet sealant). He said at that time that they were going to do sealant-type repairs before the next event of any type (member days, etc), but that before the next "big event", he was going to try to get fix it with more of a permanent solution. He said the next "big event" at the track was going to be in August some time (he didn't say what it was, though).

He said he is hesitant to make any big changes to the track surface yet because it is still very young, and won't have fully cured until after the first summer the track sees is finished (I guess that's like putting a heat cycle on a tire . He also partially blamed the difficult conditions in North Texas, saying that the weather here (and paricularly the Sun), make it very difficult to come up with a good surface material for racing.

That's all of the first hand account stuff. Now comes the speculation:


It's obvious the track surface is very different here than at MSR. MSR seems to handle the cars just fine without any of the gravelling problems that ECR is seeing.

However, I'm not a big fan of the MSR surface, either. MSR is fine in the dry, but it's super treacherous in the wet. Apparently they used a teflon material in the aggregate, and in the corners where the track is more work, the teflon really shows it stuff (after the rubber is washed off). Driving on the line in the wet at MSR almost guarantees a spin due to the teflon material exposed on the line. And I'm not just saying this because I spun twice on a warm up lap the first time I was out at MSR in the rain...

ECR, on the other hand, feels awesome in the wet. It is way grippier than I would have expected in the wet, so in that department ECR wins hands down.

It is certainly true that ECR went to crap during the event. I nearly suggested they run the sweeper between each session to clear the gravel from the previous one. In fact, just take a look at the videos I posted on day 3, and compare them to the video Tom posted on the first day (it's on YouTube, his handle is GotA911-- if there's not a link above). The track looks nice and clean in the day 1 video, and it's trashed in the day 3 stuff.

In general, I think it will just take some time for ECR to come up to speed. They have some big issues to work out, for sure. But "doing it right" requires everyone building experience at that track, both drivers, organizers, and the track owners/maintenance crews. The ECR guys are even open to big suggestions, like changing whole turns, etc... so they are definitely in this for the long haul. I think it is premature to dismiss ECR as a good track based on the inital growing pains.

-Judd

PS: Speaking of big changes to that track, does anyone else hate turn 7 as much as I do? If they just banked that corner, then it would be a lot like the famous Laguna Seca turn, which would be awesome...

juddtaylor

I did a lot of thinking about how I drive some of the turns you mentioned, and I think I can now explain what I'm donig there, especially about turn 9.

[NOTE: I'm a "feel" driver, and I'm not thinking about much of this while I'm driving. I basically just get an idea about a line to take, and my hands and feet just do whatever they need to to make it happen (and I like that)]

The reason I did so much thinking on turn 9 is that I had several near brown-flag moments headed towards the dirt at the exit of 9a. What I couldn't figure it was why the only time I was getting in trouble there was when I was intentionally going slower through there (for whatever reason). I think I know what's up now.

First off, turn 9 is a 2 apex turn. I'll call the turn in to the midpoint between the 2 apexs "turn 9a", and the from there to the exit curbing before turn 10 "turn 9b". I'll call that short curbing area between 9a and 9b the "midpoint" (duh).

The best analogy for the elevation changes I can think of is a snowboard half-pipe. At the turn in of 9a, you are headed down the slope. The bottom*, is very near the midpoint, and turn 9b is the up portion. Basic driving knowledge (and physics), show that traction is decreased on downhill sections (the car is trying to jump off the track), and increased on uphill sections (the car is digging into the track).

[NOTE: *: In reality, it just flattens out at the midpoint, and doesn't start going uphill again until the very exit of turn 9b. However, since you're headed downhill to begin with, the vertical momentum of the car gives you the traction advantage as soon as it flattens out, and the traction gains keep increasing until you have to brake for turn 10. If you want to be nit-pickey, the real half-pipe I'm referring to would be a plot of the total traction level through the turn, which doesn't exactly relate to the actual track elevation.]

The way I approach turn 9 in it's entirety is to maximize the grip advantage you get from going uphill. So here's how I do that.

I start by doing a hard brake before the entrance to 9a. I "linger" on the brake as I downshift from 3rd to 2nd (not really full trail-braking, I'm just not getting off the brakes as quickly as normal). Since the turn happens while you're headed downhill, I use the trail braking to shift what weight the car still has to the fronts to induce oversteer. As the car oversteers on the downhill section through the apex of 9a, I wait for the car to rotate enough before I counter the oversteer with the 2nd gear tourque of the engine. The whole point of everything so far is to get the rotation done as early in the turn as possible, so I can use as much throttle as possible in 9b. I'm on full throttle in 2nd gear starting at about 2/3 the way through 9a.

At the midpoint, I go ahead and up shift (early) to 3rd gear. I don't need the twitchiness of 2nd anymore to plant the rears (as I'll be going uphill and will have plenty of traction), and my engine has that whole oil starvation thing in left handers. Going to 3rd sends the rpms way down, which is much better for my engine (that is something I'm thinking about while driving). If I wait for redline in 2nd, I'll need to shift at the apex of 9b , anyways. Also, for some reason, shifting to 3rd there just seems a lot faster to me (tire noise).

For the midpoint through the rest of 9b, I'm just at full throttle, unwinding the wheel as soon as I can. The car is in a full 4-wheel drift at this point, and the tires just scream in awesome harmony. This is where I appear to be much faster than everyone else in the videos and on the track. The uphill makes this real easy. In fact on this line, there's no cahones involved on the exit. even at max throttle there's no way my car will go off at the exit of 9b (which is what I think a lot of people are scared will happen). Even if I wait for redline before 3rd gear, I'll be in 3rd right at the apex of 9b, so the exit of 9b is never twitchy with the throttle.

So now the explanation of why I was getting into trouble nearly going off at the midpoint while going slower: Basically, at slower speeds, the uphill/downhill traction loss/gain is much less pronounced. At lower speeds, I just can't get the car to oversteer on turn in of 9a. Without the oversteer, I just couldn't get the car to rotate enough to stay on the track, much less get on the throttle. Without the oversteer, I can't get on the throttle until at least 1/3 the way through 9b (almost at the apex). Compare that to my line, where I'm on full throttle just past the apex of 9a.


I've got to hit lunch now. I have good explanations for the other turns as well. I'll post when I get back...

-Judd

TR6

Judd, interesting analysis. I have to admit that the "dropoff" at the track out curbing of 9b looks scary to me. I've not come anywhere close to going off there yet, and actually only trackout to about 2/3's width there as I approach the setup for 10, but 9b's trackout appears to be a very nasty spot to go off. I haven't walked the track on foot, but a quick glance there as it speeds past makes it appear that the trackout curbing of 9b is slightly banked and then drops off at the outside edge where the dirt begins. Curious if anyone else feels the same about it. Maybe it looks worse than it really is.

Another trackout spot that makes me nervous is T8's trackout (right hander). The track seems to go off camber as you track out there and there is that barrier out there to your left... I've struggled with exactly where/how to turn in and apex T8 to get the right line through there without just being an outright slug in that section. I'd appreciate thoughts on that one.

himself

I err on the side of slug as well. The only part of the 8-9a-9b set of turns that I am on the track-out curbing is at the bottom of the hill before 9b turn in. I distinctly remember seeing somebody's wheel off the car at the club race - not sure if it was a turn 9 issue or not, but I like my wheels.

I might be braver running CW though

-td

juddtaylor

The 9b trackout doesn't look so bad to me. [I went back and took good looks at it in the videos]. Sure, the track crests at the edge, then the dirt slopes down, and then back up the hill. Since it's so compact there before the uphill, and since the uphill is pretty gentle, I don't think there's any roll over risk there. There's also nothing to hit there (no armco, etc). So I think the risk of getting hurt there is pretty low, given that. Car damage wise, you could mess up a fender going from the down to uphill there (depending on how soft the ground is, and since the track was just laid, I'd guess pretty soft), or you could high spot the bottom of the car going off the track.

I've seen a lot of people go off at the midpoint curbing (dozens if you include 2 wheel offs), and one go off at 9b exit. The offs looked pretty easy, and nothing was damaged. I have a tape from last year's DE at ECR where a BMW Z car gets crazy at midpoint, then spins out there all the way around to the 9b exit. It was pretty funny, actually. To be honest, though, I always laugh at BMW spins

-Judd

ervtx

.........^^^...................
Greg, that was close....

Judd almost wrote "where a BMW M coupe gets crazy"!!

By the way, you are running closer to the edge in 8 and 9 than you give you give yourself credit for...

TR6

LOL on the BMW! I've definitely spun the M Coupe once or twice. But not nearly as collosal as my epic spins in the 911!

cs jeff

Judd... good analysis. I want to go back out there and try some of that.