PCA Club Racing and head and neck restraints
03-25-2008, 11:43 AM
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PCA Club Racing and head and neck restraints
For the record:
Gregg S. Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
The Porsche Club of America has announced that it will require the use of a head and neck restraint for all Club Racing participants beginning June of 2008. Specifically, "After June 1, 2008, a head and neck restraint meeting either the standards of either [sic] SFI 38.1 or FIA 8858 will be required."
This announcement did not require that products be certified nor did it provide a list of products that met the performance levels included in those specifications.
Seeking clarification we contacted Mr. Bruce A. Boeder, Chairman of Porsche Club Racing, to discuss the matter. He emphasized that the proposed rule can be changed and that SFI and FIA were included only for reference. Further, he noted that the PCA Club Racing Board was acutely aware that Isaac® systems exceed the performance requirements of every testing/certifying organization in the world, and was unaware that Isaac® systems are RSI certified.
Mr. Boeder also noted that the PCA welcomes as much input as possible regarding all safety rules and encourages members to comment on this rule so it can be changed before implementation.
We recommend all Isaac® users who participate with PCA to contact Mr. Boeder's office and express their preference for expressly including Isaac® systems and expanding certification references to include RSI.
PCA Club Racing can be reached at:
Bruce A. Boeder
11919 Hilloway Road West
Minnetonka, MN 55305
952-475-7040 day
952-475-7042 fax
clubracingchair@pca.org
From http://www.isaacdirect.com/PCA.htmlThis announcement did not require that products be certified nor did it provide a list of products that met the performance levels included in those specifications.
Seeking clarification we contacted Mr. Bruce A. Boeder, Chairman of Porsche Club Racing, to discuss the matter. He emphasized that the proposed rule can be changed and that SFI and FIA were included only for reference. Further, he noted that the PCA Club Racing Board was acutely aware that Isaac® systems exceed the performance requirements of every testing/certifying organization in the world, and was unaware that Isaac® systems are RSI certified.
Mr. Boeder also noted that the PCA welcomes as much input as possible regarding all safety rules and encourages members to comment on this rule so it can be changed before implementation.
We recommend all Isaac® users who participate with PCA to contact Mr. Boeder's office and express their preference for expressly including Isaac® systems and expanding certification references to include RSI.
PCA Club Racing can be reached at:
Bruce A. Boeder
11919 Hilloway Road West
Minnetonka, MN 55305
952-475-7040 day
952-475-7042 fax
clubracingchair@pca.org
Gregg S. Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
03-25-2008, 12:01 PM
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http://www.fia.com/resources/documen..._2002_Hans.pdf
Not surprising, since the 38 page spec is the HANS spec.
The only thing left now is for Microsoft to buy Hubbard & Downing.
03-25-2008, 12:04 PM
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RSI doesn't have a certification standard
http://racingsafetyinstitute.org/AboutRSI.html
From the RSI website
METHODS
RSI presents to the public, in summary format, test results provided by reseachers, manufacturers and other parties. RSI does not set design parameters nor performance standards, although performance standards are referenced where applicable. There are no members; no one joins anything or pays any fees. Donations are accepted but not from manufacturers.
http://racingsafetyinstitute.org/AboutRSI.html
From the RSI website
METHODS
RSI presents to the public, in summary format, test results provided by reseachers, manufacturers and other parties. RSI does not set design parameters nor performance standards, although performance standards are referenced where applicable. There are no members; no one joins anything or pays any fees. Donations are accepted but not from manufacturers.
03-25-2008, 12:31 PM
#5
Nordschleife Master
It is likely that the rules around H&N will be changed from "Meeting SFI 38.1 or FIA..." will be changed to require actual certification and the sticker. Part of the issue is the fake HANs devices that have showed up on Ebay and our ability to tell them apart. Further, at Sebring, I looked at a number of HANs devices and found about 1/3 of the small sample size inspected did not have the SFI certification sticker because they were early versions, prior to the certification. I spoke with HANs and they will place a certification sticker on the older device if the Serial number is within the range where they can. You can do that by sending it back to them.
03-25-2008, 12:54 PM
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Wait a minute!
I did not say "that the PCA Club Racing Board was acutely aware that Isaac® systems exceed the performance requirements of every testing/certifying organization in the world" and I resent an attempt to put such words into my mouth. As I previously told Mr. Baker, PCA does not have the expertise nor the facilities to test safety equipment. Nor, frankly, do we have any interest in undertaking such testing ourself. However, we do have an interest in protecting the safety of our racers. Every wheel to wheel sanctioning body that we are aware of defers to SFI and/or FIA for testing and certification purposes. We are merely doing the same. So long as SFI and FIA are the established standards for certification of safety equipment in racing, PCA club racing will follow their lead.
If someone send me an email or mails me a letter now, I will delete or throw it away, as it is being received outside of the rules change period. PCA club racing has an established procedure for changing its rules. The rules change proposal period is not currently open. It will not open until May 1, 2008.
When it does open, there will be an email address posted on the PCA.org web site, directing those who wish to make rules change proposals to send an email to a specific email address. Until then, people are wasting their time sending emails or letters to me.
Geoffrey Ring is correct, we are in the process of clarifying the wording of the new rule to require certification of head and neck restraint systems used in PCA club racing. A rules clarification is allowed outside of the rules change period as it is simply that, a clarification. Stay tuned.
Regards and let's go racing,
Bruce Boeder
I did not say "that the PCA Club Racing Board was acutely aware that Isaac® systems exceed the performance requirements of every testing/certifying organization in the world" and I resent an attempt to put such words into my mouth. As I previously told Mr. Baker, PCA does not have the expertise nor the facilities to test safety equipment. Nor, frankly, do we have any interest in undertaking such testing ourself. However, we do have an interest in protecting the safety of our racers. Every wheel to wheel sanctioning body that we are aware of defers to SFI and/or FIA for testing and certification purposes. We are merely doing the same. So long as SFI and FIA are the established standards for certification of safety equipment in racing, PCA club racing will follow their lead.
If someone send me an email or mails me a letter now, I will delete or throw it away, as it is being received outside of the rules change period. PCA club racing has an established procedure for changing its rules. The rules change proposal period is not currently open. It will not open until May 1, 2008.
When it does open, there will be an email address posted on the PCA.org web site, directing those who wish to make rules change proposals to send an email to a specific email address. Until then, people are wasting their time sending emails or letters to me.
Geoffrey Ring is correct, we are in the process of clarifying the wording of the new rule to require certification of head and neck restraint systems used in PCA club racing. A rules clarification is allowed outside of the rules change period as it is simply that, a clarification. Stay tuned.
Regards and let's go racing,
Bruce Boeder
03-25-2008, 01:50 PM
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And you expressly noted that you and others in Club Racing management were aware of the performance of Isaac systems, did you not?
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03-25-2008, 01:51 PM
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03-25-2008, 01:55 PM
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RSI doesn't have a certification standard
http://racingsafetyinstitute.org/AboutRSI.html
From the RSI website
METHODS
RSI presents to the public, in summary format, test results provided by reseachers, manufacturers and other parties. RSI does not set design parameters nor performance standards, although performance standards are referenced where applicable. There are no members; no one joins anything or pays any fees. Donations are accepted but not from manufacturers.
http://racingsafetyinstitute.org/AboutRSI.html
From the RSI website
METHODS
RSI presents to the public, in summary format, test results provided by reseachers, manufacturers and other parties. RSI does not set design parameters nor performance standards, although performance standards are referenced where applicable. There are no members; no one joins anything or pays any fees. Donations are accepted but not from manufacturers.
The manufacturer certifies that this product meets or exceeds the industry performance standard(s) listed at
http//www.racingsafetyinstitute.org
http//www.racingsafetyinstitute.org
03-25-2008, 02:46 PM
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Don't get me wrong. I like the idea of RSI. However there is no standard on the RSI site. There is only the test result of the product that was (most likely) provided by the manufacturer although it was most likely done at an independant testing facility. The certification is only stating that the device is similar to the one that was tested.
03-25-2008, 02:56 PM
#11
Nordschleife Master
Why don't you just solve the single release point issue? I posted 2+ years ago about having a system that used the harness buckle to release the Isaacs via cables, and you said something like "it is in the works".
03-25-2008, 04:21 PM
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1. There proved to be a risk of accidental release, and
2. There is an increasing risk in affiliating w/SFI.
03-25-2008, 04:24 PM
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Don't get me wrong. I like the idea of RSI. However there is no standard on the RSI site. There is only the test result of the product that was (most likely) provided by the manufacturer although it was most likely done at an independant testing facility. The certification is only stating that the device is similar to the one that was tested.
A spec is created somewhere, an independent lab runs it on Product X, and the results are verified. The Product X manufacturer may then use the label.
03-25-2008, 04:27 PM
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Well, last time I checked, there is only one H&N restraint in the world that meets FIA 8858:
http://www.fia.com/resources/documen..._2002_Hans.pdf
Not surprising, since the 38 page spec is the HANS spec.
The only thing left now is for Microsoft to buy Hubbard & Downing.
http://www.fia.com/resources/documen..._2002_Hans.pdf
Not surprising, since the 38 page spec is the HANS spec.
The only thing left now is for Microsoft to buy Hubbard & Downing.
<= FrenchIsaac, LLC <= not French
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
03-25-2008, 04:38 PM
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