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Critique my VIR vid please (be gentle)

 
Old 03-23-2008, 12:08 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by tkerrmd View Post
well I feel all warm and fuzzy now!!
OOPS My bad! It is just fun to stir the pot with some of these guys on Rennlist
Hey if they can post their opinion.......

I guess that's why I am always lonely at the track
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Old 03-23-2008, 12:16 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by GT3 Nut View Post
OOPS My bad! It is just fun to stir the pot with some of these guys on Rennlist
Hey if they can post their opinion.......

I guess that's why I am always lonely at the track
Well if you didn't have so many cars in the garage to track you would have more time to spend socializing
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Old 03-23-2008, 12:34 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by LVDell View Post
Well if you didn't have so many cars in the garage to track you would have more time to spend socializing
And I just thought nobody liked me
I guess I will have to only bring one car from now on.
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Old 03-23-2008, 12:37 PM
  #34  
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I'll call Greg and see if I can't have him misplace one
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Old 03-23-2008, 12:52 PM
  #35  
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im still feeling warm and fuzzy!!!!
MattE... you are to busy polishing that wing .... and all that bling to be out socializing....

i got the check thanks by the way..
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Old 03-23-2008, 12:55 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by 930man View Post
im still feeling warm and fuzzy!!!!
MattE... you are to busy polishing that wing .... and all that bling to be out socializing....

i got the check thanks by the way..
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Old 03-23-2008, 02:49 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by 930man View Post
oh and i completely disagree with a blanket statement of staying off gators with out knowing a cars set up.. my 996 gt3 would unsettle on the gators at the esses... my gt2 there is no issue with hitting them ... in fact i went through faster on power though them...

im sure Dell was speaking of a stock suspension
I tried to use them too, and it helped me a bit as well in my 2...

All of these comments/opinions and pointers are helpful for all of us, it was my first time at VIR as well and man I can't wait to get back!

Originally Posted by Mikelly View Post
Well I've learned something here I can actually take away and apply the next time...

T1 2nd gear? Wow... Wouldn't a thought it, but hey I'm downshifting into 2nd at Oaktree now and it works like a charm.

2nd Gear for T4? Again, wouldn't a thought it... One thing with these higher HP cars is we get lazy and rely more on the torque, and leave a lot... I'll try that one next time as well...

T14/14A? Again... It makes sense now that I think back thru it and will give it a shot. I'm already trail braking there...

Dez, you left it in 4th on the bridge straight and I've thought about doing this to get better throttle control on the uphill esses, being that we're both above 400WHP. I'm gonna try that next time out just to do a comparo.

Oh, and as I found out last fall, come here and ask advice at your own risk. Thin skin need not apply. Some of these guys are ruthless, so don't ask unless you really want the critique.

I've found that posting less here and reading more is much more helpful for my personal learning curve.

Mike
And Mike I took your advice for 2nd around oak tree , it helped me rocket out of the whole (although 2 times a little too much throttle spun my 335's) but I got the hang of it, instead of waiting in 3rd to sppol which comes on FAST, but I could tell you lose valuable time!

Interesting for t1 and t4 using 2nd as well, also I saw Dez staying in 4th through the esses, I usually had to enter 5th as I was banging off 7k rev limiter before getting to the cones for the esses, and left it in 5th all the way to the oak tree turn. I gueess it works well for our cars who have tons of power and torque, but yet its not really the BEST for getting times down!
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Old 03-23-2008, 03:34 PM
  #38  
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Happy Easter Everyone!!!

Mike
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Old 03-23-2008, 04:54 PM
  #39  
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happy easter to everyone. im going to watch F1 race now
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Old 03-23-2008, 04:55 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by GT3 Nut View Post
+1
Even some cars with stock suspension.

I just love it how everyone is an expert around here

Like Matt said - learn from some of the good pointers and ignore the BS.
Ask for a pro drivers help if you can get a chance to do so. I know he will give you FAR better advice than any SELF PROCLAIMED expert here. I am definitely not saying they all don't know anything, but when they come across like they are so much better than anything you can do, move on to some guys who have a little humility in their approach to instruction - unless they truly are PROs. And have a little humility in listening to advice - just as you have shown. We all can learn/help each other when it's done in the correct manner.
I will be at RA this coming weekend for the PCA Club race. Never been there before. Will you and Jenk be around to give me some pointers?
By the way, nice meeting you guys. jenk seems to be pretty down to earth for a pro sports player. I didn't get to talk with you guys much after meeting you in my garage Thursday night. Maybe next time.
Yes, we'll be around. There is one and maybe a few others staying at my house for the races. Jenk and I live in the same subdivision which is minutes from the track. I'll be there pretty much the whole weekend watching as I plan to get into this myself in the near future. We were broken in at Road Atlanta and know it very well so we can surely help you get adjusted.

Originally Posted by VB997 View Post
+1

I'm certainly not an expert, but you looked damn good to me considering you had not been to VIR before. Try going down to 2nd gear in T1, T4 and T14 next time you are there, you might find it faster with street car gearing. Good job Dez!

BTW...a while ago Matt C. (930man) and I spent some time with Spencer Pompelli and one of the things we noticed was he left at least a tire width on track out of South Bend but was still crazy fast through there. He said he just liked to have room to spare...

I guess the point is...do what works for you and your car/comfort level but keep an open mind to try new things.
That's excellent that Spencer said that because that's exactly what my thought process was. Room to spare, but since it was new, and slick (for me) I kept room in a few places.

I am the type that tries just about anything. I had to have tried at least 10 different ways through turn 1, and 5 or so through snake, 5 more through roller coaster. I adjust gear choice, turn in, trail brake, throttle input, throttle steer etc. I'll do that until I feel confortable and fast at all the turns, and will certainly try something as long as it's not beyond my capabilites.

Thanks

Originally Posted by LVDell View Post
This type of response is the reason I said what I did. Maybe it was out of line or maybe it just came out wrong. If it did then you have my apologies.

It just came across from you as that you had an excuse for everything and didn't really want to take the critiques you asked for. Instead it was 'I ran alot of 207's and I was just taking it easy', etc.. If you are NOT going to change your style from critiques offered like you specifically told Todd then I am confused as to why you are asking for the input?

But with your style as you stated, then I am not sure what critique can be offered or more importantly what you are looking for.

I guess the bottom line is (as you said) be safe. Best of luck out there. Not of us are experts by any stretch of the imagination (like GT3nut seems to think) but my offer to head out with you still stands as I am sure Matt (930man) and Jonh (VB), etc would also be very willing to offer up their expereince as they are both great instructors with countless laps at he track.



HAPPY EASTER ALL
I believe this would be the third time I said this but I agreed with almost everything you said in your critique. I only mentioned that it was my first time to the track and I chose a line that felt comfortable to me under the circumstances.

I also said I'd try everything you said next time I went out there. I dont see why this is so hard to understand. I told TD that my approach to the initial weekend at the track was one that would benefit early apex instead of late. As a missed apex could have put me in the } { thread of saves. But that my initial approach was not one to be able to late apex every turn and be able to keep my eyes where they should be. I didnt disagree or say anyone was wrong. Just gave insight as to my thought process going into the weekend. That's it. And regardless none of it has anything to do with my lap times being questioned.

I've accpeted the critque 3x already and agreed, so let's just get all the drama out now instead of trying to throw sugar on top of the snide remarks. Then we can be done with it and move on.

Last edited by wanna911; 03-23-2008 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 03-23-2008, 05:21 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Mikelly View Post
Well I've learned something here I can actually take away and apply the next time...

T1 2nd gear? Wow... Wouldn't a thought it, but hey I'm downshifting into 2nd at Oaktree now and it works like a charm.

2nd Gear for T4? Again, wouldn't a thought it... One thing with these higher HP cars is we get lazy and rely more on the torque, and leave a lot... I'll try that one next time as well...

T14/14A? Again... It makes sense now that I think back thru it and will give it a shot. I'm already trail braking there...

Dez, you left it in 4th on the bridge straight and I've thought about doing this to get better throttle control on the uphill esses, being that we're both above 400WHP. I'm gonna try that next time out just to do a comparo.

Oh, and as I found out last fall, come here and ask advice at your own risk. Thin skin need not apply. Some of these guys are ruthless, so don't ask unless you really want the critique.

I've found that posting less here and reading more is much more helpful for my personal learning curve.

Mike
Mike, I used 4th because the top of 4th gear ended just after the bridge, so I carry that speed into the esses, I was right between 133 and 135 on entry, which I was ok with me, but my exit speed at the top was only 106-108.


As for turn 1, I'd have to open up the wheel and be able to put the power in 3rd down first. I tried going wide a couple times in third and it still spun so that's why I kept the line close and it helped my confidence for turn 3. As I get more comfortable I try new stuff.

Turn 4 I dont think would be good in the TT in 2nd gear, too much torque and not enough gear. In a GT3 I'd use it in a heartbeat.

Originally Posted by ZAPmobile View Post
wanna 911, if you had hired a pro racer to coach you and they gave you the same critiques would you be offended. The advice you have received here is the same advice most of us instructors would have given you if we were riding in your right set. All of us can benefit from constructive criticism, doesn't matter what run group we are in. None of us have ever turned a perfiect lap, NOBODY has, when you say I was just doing this or just doing that, means you or any of us is not ready to hear how to improve our driving.

Free advice is free advice, but most of what you got here is worth a lot more than what you paid for it.
I have had some pro instruction before and every one of them is humble and gives suggestions. I still have not been offended, in fact I think it's the other way around. I would have no problem telling an instructor I'm not comfortable with trying certain things in certain places on a track I'm not familiar with. So in that aspect I would not change a thing.
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Old 03-23-2008, 06:26 PM
  #42  
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wanna 911,

I guess my response to you was not only directed to you but to anyone who wants to post a video with a view to getting a critque. Please don't be offended, as that is not what people are usually trying to do. When you post a video, make sure it is the best one, not the one that merits excuses such as, "Well, I did much better later." Instead, let's see that much-better-later video.

Remember, we can only critique what we see, not what happened at some other time.

Margo and I not only hop in a lot of cars with people who want to improve their driving, but we ask people whom we respect to hop in with us. It makes us better drivers and better instructors.

A lot of people post lap times. I am frankly not overly impressed with lap times, because they do not always reflect the skill of a driver. Take someone turning something in the 2:09-10 range in a 500hp car. Am I overwhelmed by that? Not at all. I am much more impressed with someone doing a 2:10 in a 250hp car that meets all the PCA specs of a stock class racer.

If you really want to be impressed with lap times and what it takes to be a top-notch driver, look at Andy Lally, Spencer Pumpelly, Wolf Heinzler, and Leh King who do 1:52s in qualifying and can run 1:55s all day long without breaking a sweat in a 420hp car.

When I ask for a critique, I realize that the input usually has merit, and I am thankful for it. I do not need to make excuses, as that is non-productive. If I have a student who continually makes excuses, I will teach him to be safe on the track,of course, but will I clue him in to the inner secrets of going fast? Absolutely not! That's reserved for those who really want to improve.
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Old 03-23-2008, 06:59 PM
  #43  
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Ok, wanna, one of my friends e-mailed me and suggested that a further explanation of my original point may be helpful, and that you might take it the way I meant it, as a helpful discussion. So here goes. I mean this as peer-to-peer discussion, not as if I think I am great and talking down to you or anyone else. I do not, I assure you. Also, these are general comments, and there are always exceptions, but hear me out.

At the level we drive (non-pro DE drivers), the condition of your tires should have little to no impact on your line. The only effect tire condition will have is to lower the limit, but the techniques we use to get the most out of ourselves and our cars within the limit does not, generally speaking, change with the actual level of the limit (i.e., tire and/or track conditions).

That said, bad tires can affect your confidence, as can a new track. The impact of lack of confidence (and I don't mean that as an insult, sometimes lack of confidence is another way of saying wisdom) is that you move your turn in LATER . . . not earlier. Why? The earlier you turn in, the less room you will have at track out. The later you turn in, the more room you will have at track out. The apex should not change. With a constant apex, one of the most important variables is the turn in point, which is a major factor (but not the only factor) in the attitude of your car at the apex (how much turning you have done by the time you hit the apex). If you turn in early, you have to do more turning in the last part of the turn (post-apex), which gives you fewer options if you lose traction or make a mistake. If you turn in late, you have to do more turning in the first part of the turn (pre-apex), which gives you many more options if you make a mistake, and will give you more room at track out. This is why I could not understand your explanation. Turning in later is more conservative . . . turning in earlier is less conservative. Turning in later makes it easier to leave yourself room at track out. Turning in earlier makes it harder to leave yourself room at track out. The same is true regardless of whether you have great tires or bad tires.

This discussion assumes that you are not doing lurid "rally" style slides on the track, which would be slower under nearly any circumstance I can imagine. IF you are doing lurid rally style slides around oaktree, then, yes, you would want to turn in early and keep your nose around the apex so that you can slide out to track out. But that doesn't count here.

Also, your turn in point has nothing to do with how hot you enter a corner, which I understand to be entry speed. Want to come in hotter? Brake less. Want to make in less hot? Brake more. You can do this with respect to any turn in point.

Now, with respect to a high HP car like yours, I would think that you would have a later turn-in point than a low HP car like my former race car. (I learned what I am about to explain from Cervelli, who is a great instructor). Why? Well, think of it in terms of a friction circle. In an ideal world, the circle would be perfectly round and we would be able to pull at least 2Gs in Braking, 2Gs in Cornering, and 2Gs in Acceleration. Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world. I am going to use 1G as an example (although many of us can pull more than 1 G in braking and cornering): We can pull 1G in braking, 1G in cornering, and WAY, WAY less in acceleration. In my ex race car I think it was something like 0.14 or 0.2 Gs in acceleration. For the sake of the example, let's assume 0.1 Gs for my car and 0.5Gs for your higher HP car. Why do we care about the difference in acceleration? Because we want to get the most out of our car's particular characteristics on track out. If I can only pull 0.1Gs in acceleration, that leaves me 0.9Gs for cornering. By contrast, if you can pull 0.5 Gs in acceleration, that leaves you only 0.5 Gs for cornering. Why do you care? This says that I should get most of my turning done in the second half of the corner (post-apex) because I CAN'T accelerate and thus I DO NOT NEED much for acceleration and CAN USE almost everything for cornering. So, I would try to make the first half of the corner (pre-apex) a larger radius than the second half of the corner so that I can carry in as much speed as possible and rotate the car relatively late in the corner rather than killing my speed too early since I can't get it back. By contrast, you, in comparison, CAN accelerate and thus YOU NEED some of your Gs (actually, in my example, half) for acceleration out of the corner and thus can't use everything for cornering. So, maybe you should be trying to rotate the car more in the first half of the corner (pre-apex) so that you don't need so much cornering Gs when you are accelerating out of the corner. In other words, make the radius of the second half of the corner larger than the first half. How would you do this? Maybe going deeper, turning in later and rotating the car earlier so you can get back on the gas earlier. This is another reason why I didn't understand your comment about focusing on turning in earlier.

I also think that maybe you should try to eliminate as much coasting/maintenance throttle as you can. The most unstable period for most cars is the transition period (e.g., going from braking to acceleration, or acceleration to braking). Most cars tend to be more stable in if they are under some force (e.g., braking, cornering or acceleration). In corners, most cars tend to be more stable if they are under braking or acceleration. Think of a waiter running with a full, but open, bottle of wine on his tray. It isn't so hard to run full speed once you get going, but the trouble comes when you try to stop and start again. When you are coasting or using very slight maintenance throttle, you are prolonging the periods of transition, and the car could more rapidly transition from oversteer to understeer or vice versa than when you are under throttle or braking, where you can set the car and feel the set (of course, you can push it too far, but my point is that YOU are actively controlling the car). Coasting and maintenance throttle is also slow. So, my instructors have always come down on me very hard with respect to coasting and maintenance throttle. It is better to be on the gas or on the brakes. If you are having trouble getting on the gas early, maybe you should burn off more speed going into the corner. So, you ideally would focus on coming into the corner at a speed that allows you to get on the gas and smoothly (you don't have to get on full throttle immediately) building through the apex and to track out. One nice transition, not maintenance and then full throttle (which is what it sounded like you were doing in your video). Once you reach the point where you can do that safely, then you can start working on increasing entry speed, which may delay the point at which you can go from brakes to throttle (but since you entered faster you may still be faster out of the corner), until it forces you to back off the throttle due to oversteer or understeer (at which point you can slow down a bit on entry). Of course, coasting and maintenance throttle is perfectly stable if you are below the limit, but where's the fun in that? More importantly, do you really want to be cementing bad habits while driving below the limit that can bite you if you try them at the limit?

I sincerely hope you and others find this further explanation helpful. I have not made one snide comment to you, and the only reason I took a break to write this out was to add to the conversation in a positive way. Ok, that's not entirely true, I am hiding from my kids who are all on sugar highs.



P.S. I would never give someone a hard time if they want to learn and are willing to take criticism. It is hard not to have a little fun with people who seem to think too much of themselves at all levels of driving (this comment was not directed at you or anyone in particular). This is all supposed to be fun.

P.S.x2 Dammit. I feel a graph coming on.

Last edited by TD in DC; 03-23-2008 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 03-23-2008, 08:10 PM
  #44  
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Excellent Grasshopper. If you look down you will see that you have snatched the beans from my hand. It is time for you to go....




....racing again!
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Old 03-23-2008, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Herman View Post
Excellent Grasshopper. If you look down you will see that you have snatched the beans from my hand. It is time for you to go....




....racing again!
Thanks Larry. I try to listen . . .
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