Originally Posted by LVDell (Post 5238931)

Between T1 and T2 you need to unwind ALOT MORE. You are pinching the right side of the track and scrubbing alot of speed that wayGood point, I knew that. For some reason I was determined to make the tighter line work.

NASCAR justry to be more smooth, line seems to be just about right but maybe turn in a bit sooner. I started turning in earlier as the weekend progressed, sometimes I can over exhaggerate the "late apex" motto

5A you keep turning in too early. Hesitate a fraction more and snake will be a breeze.I turned in late there once in an earlier session, and with the old tires I figured I'd rather be a little early and scrub some speed than be late, and trying to keep the car on track and spinning into that wall. Point taken and was a goal for my next time out.

T7 (entrance to the esses) way TOO EARLY on turn in. Later turn in, stay left and then shoot through to the top at almost a straight line while ON THROTTLE. Quick lift before turn in to T9 and back on it to settle the nose. You line turning in so early causes ALOT of steering input so you end up fighting the esses all the way to the top. Also let the car drift out a bit at T9 track out. Pinching it scrubs alot of speed. You're right, Matt told me the same thing after watching the vid, I followed some people earlier and just continued what I followed.

Turn in to the apex a touch sooner for Southbend.
Interesting, I actually thought I was a bit too early, but I really wanted to turn in sooner than I was, I'm happy to hear that

If you are going to take the racing line into T14 and T14a you need to trailbrake otherwise you are really killing speed here. If you do not feel comfortable trailing those two corners then take the "DE" line as you will be able to carry more speed. I did trailbrake but didnt transition back to gas fast enough, will come with time, and some good tires

And of course you already knew, USE MORE TRACK! Especially through Hogpen. Agreed

The reason you kept breaking away is that you were not unwinding the wheel in many places you tried to get on the throttle. Throttle steer I can handle, but if I happened to be a little off on a turn I could have put myself in some bad situations if I had been using all of the track, so it was intentional to an extent.

Stay OFF the gators. clip them in some places (just a few inches) but don't HIT them or run over them. They are VERY unsettling to the car.

Lastly, you really need to work on your gearing. Sounds like your motor is bogging down alot. There are alot of trackout positions that you are in 3rd when you need to be in 2nd. Motor wasnt really bogging, except severely at Oak Tree exit, it's just quiet until higher in the rev range. With all the torque and turbos, it was a little challenging modulating


Here is two laps I ran last year with a good friend of mine when I set my two fastest lap times to date then (206.1 and 207.0). Since then I have run consistently in the 204's and 205's. Hopefully though you can get some idea of what I was talking about by watching these two laps.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...89751193732288

Originally Posted by wanna911 (Post 5238960)

You assessment is pretty much spot on with my own for the weekend, I did play it safe being that I didnt know the track and only wanted to learn incrementally.

I was uncomfartable using all of the track in hog pen and carrying speed as the track levels quickly there and mine would break away occasionally, I didnt want it to break away and I be right up on the gator and lose it. That one is going to be tough for me.

Originally Posted by TD in DC (Post 5239282)

Once beyond Newbie vids, I think it is hard to critique from video.

I agree with dell's line comments. I am not sure I understand your comments about wanting to turn in early because you have bad tires. If anything, you would probably want to be more conservative and turn in later rather than earlier.

The sound of the video made it seem like you were either coasting or using "maintenance" throttle through many corners (e.g., 4 through snake, eases, 9, kink through oaktree, top of hill through roller coaster), and then getting on the throttle aggressively. A safer (and faster) way, even in a high hp car, I think would be to get the car rotated during the end of your braking and then progressively roll on the throttle through the corner, which would keep the car more stable at a higher speed despite bad tires. In combo turns like t4 through snake, you could get back on the throttle and then brake a liitle to rotate the car into snake rather than coast or maintenance throttle through the whole thing. Again, it is hard to hear in video and I am no Senna, but this is my constructive criticism.

Ps I also agree that you should try a lower gear or more throttle.

Originally Posted by wanna911 (Post 5239372)

I'd rather spend all day scrubbing speed by turning in too early that take the chance of going in hot and trying to fight to keep the car on track. My apexes were not early enough to be detrimental to safety. And I was not mosying around, I did turn a lot of 2:07's so at those speeds erring on the side of caution in a few areas isnt all that bad.

Originally Posted by tkerrmd (Post 5239412)

well Dell's comments and vid were awesome!! I am a less skilled driver than wanna911 but in a similar car, my vid looks poor compared to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RCtvfv3t-s

my computer had a glitch and car went into limp mode at end of vid but restarted ok

Originally Posted by wanna911 (Post 5239372)

I didnt say it was only because of bad tires. Unfamiliar territory will keep me from the edge of the track in "some" areas, for example, I was no where near track out at South Bend. I noticed a lot of other people werent either. That's because it could eat your car. The only other place I really didnt use it all was hog pen and I described the reason. Throttle steer is much more comfortable when your not on the edge of the track already and with someone unpredictable tires I felt safer that way. It may not be everyone;'s approach, but it's mine.

I'd rather spend all day scrubbing speed by turning in too early that take the chance of going in hot and trying to fight to keep the car on track. My apexes were not early enough to be detrimental to safety. And I was not mosying around, I did turn a lot of 2:07's so at those speeds erring on the side of caution in a few areas isnt all that bad.

The goal here was to hit all the apexes and I only missed probably two unintentionally the whole weekend. (I say unintentionally because on Sunday I tried not apexing 11 and taking it and Oak Tree as one big turn, hitting the apex onthe exit of Oat Tree. It improved my time through there, but still didnt carry enough speed to stay in 3rd.


But yes, you are correct, I prefer to coast and use maintenance throttle when I can, all the trailbraking everywhere isnt for me. Other than a few GT3's and some of the lightweight cars there werent many gaining or losing me through those sections so the positive side is that there is plenty of room to go up.

Originally Posted by LVDell (Post 5238931)

Between T1 and T2 you need to unwind ALOT MORE. You are pinching the right side of the track and scrubbing alot of speed that way

NASCAR justry to be more smooth, line seems to be just about right but maybe turn in a bit sooner.

5A you keep turning in too early. Hesitate a fraction more and snake will be a breeze.

T7 (entrance to the esses) way TOO EARLY on turn in. Later turn in, stay left and then shoot through to the top at almost a straight line while ON THROTTLE. Quick lift before turn in to T9 and back on it to settle the nose. You line turning in so early causes ALOT of steering input so you end up fighting the esses all the way to the top. Also let the car drift out a bit at T9 track out. Pinching it scrubs alot of speed.

Turn in to the apex a touch sooner for Southbend.

If you are going to take the racing line into T14 and T14a you need to trailbrake otherwise you are really killing speed here. If you do not feel comfortable trailing those two corners then take the "DE" line as you will be able to carry more speed.

And of course you already knew, USE MORE TRACK! Especially through Hogpen.

The reason you kept breaking away is that you were not unwinding the wheel in many places you tried to get on the throttle.

Stay OFF the gators. clip them in some places (just a few inches) but don't HIT them or run over them. They are VERY unsettling to the car.

Lastly, you really need to work on your gearing. Sounds like your motor is bogging down alot. There are alot of trackout positions that you are in 3rd when you need to be in 2nd.


Here is two laps I ran last year with a good friend of mine when I set my two fastest lap times to date then (206.1 and 207.0). Since then I have run consistently in the 204's and 205's. Hopefully though you can get some idea of what I was talking about by watching these two laps.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...89751193732288

Originally Posted by wanna911 (Post 5239372)

But yes, you are correct, I prefer to coast and use maintenance throttle when I can, all the trailbraking everywhere isnt for me. Other than a few GT3's and some of the lightweight cars there werent many gaining or losing me through those sections so the positive side is that there is plenty of room to go up.

Originally Posted by LVDell (Post 5239475)

What were you using to record your lap times? I thought you had a traqmate. I find it VERY hard to believe that you were turning "alot" of 2:07's after watching your videos that were clearly 2:10+ lap times.

By the way, the apex never changes and you consistently missed it so by saying that you would rather scrub speed by turning in too early, etc, you failed to task at hand for a DE.......improvement. You should ALWAYS be working on your line. What you did is what they call in golf "playing your slice". You will never get better with that approach.

Feel free to look me up next time down and I'd be happy to go out in your right seat (and you in mine) to improve your craft. VIR is a fantastic track and anything you can do to get better there makes each and every visit that much more rewarding.



Tom, great video. Quick question.....aren't your lateral g's swapped on the axis?

Originally Posted by TD in DC (Post 5239581)

Ok, then, we were taught by different people with different techniques. Just ignore my critique and keep doing what you are doing. ;)

Originally Posted by 38D (Post 5239819)

Coasting/Maintenance throttle has nothing to do with trail braking. You need to be getting back on the gas by the apex, not once you are straight. While you may not have been caught by many cars, that is because you have a very fast car and the other drivers were not that good.

Originally Posted by wanna911 (Post 5240355)

So now my lap times are in question? LOL. That's irrelevant to the topic, but yes I do have a traqmate and the files to back it up. You also seem to forget that this is only a few laps from the last session on my first day at the track. I ran a 2:08 in that session somewhere, maybe not on the vid.


And what apexes did I consistently miss again.

You are coming off as kind of aggressive, no need for that, just track talk here.

If you can go to a new track and run laps at speed in the first few sessions, while hitting the apex's and using all the track then more power to ya. I chose to play it carefully and within my limits. My lines were not optimal, but not so very FAR off from what I saw in your vid.





This is the internet man, I asked for some constructive criticism which I think I've taken very well and agreed with. That doesnt mean I'm going to change my driving style because some guy on the internet says so. As long as I can be fast and safe, I'll learn at my own pace. I take the knowledge I've gained here and will put it to use, but there is no need to be so sensitive.



If you have tons of torque and older tires yes sometimes you do need to be straight before you get on the gas, I didnt post the laps at snake where I tried applying the throttle earlier and the back end stepped out on me. Sometimes you have to adjust to what the conditions are and unfortunately, mine were not of great traction.

And from what I know whenever there is neither gas nor brake, you are coasting, so yes trailbraking does have something to do with coasting, which I did use from the braking zone of 11 through oak tree and between 2 and 3. I do have a turbo car and the boost comes in quick and hard, but when it's not, the car is fairly quiet, so light throttle may sound like no throttle, but it's there, just below the turbos breaking the tires loose.

Originally Posted by tkerrmd (Post 5240393)

wanna911
I have come to this forum the most and learned the most from the guys on it. they are a group of for the most part real drivers and racers and have a ton of good advice and are kind enough to share it
since I have a car very similar to yours I do think there are some driving nuiances particular to our car ie high hp twin turbo AWD that do change things some for us.
all the above info given was good stuff and your comments are true and pertain to our specific car.
since seeing you drive (from behind you) you in the first day sized the track up certainly faster than I ever could.
I think with some of the help offered on this thread your next time out at that track you certainly could be as fast as near anyone out there!!