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vir fun: south bend screwup

 
Old 03-19-2008, 01:43 PM
  #31  
RedlineMan
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Ha!

It is most often the turns that are considered "easy" in terms of geometry that can bite you the worst when you ramp it up a bit. To wit; Turn 10 at The Glen. Turn 1 at Mosport. South Bend at VIR. Turn 13 at Mid-O, etc.

This is obviously because you subconsciously don't give them equal respect. The other problem is that increased pace reveals or magnifies inherent corner characteristics in nasty ways; 10 at The Glen's track out point is on the horizon line, making depth perception tricky. 1 at Mosport is off camber and getting increasingly humpy at the exit curb. South Bend also is off camber at the exit curb. 13 at Mid O is rather dramitcally decreasing radius when at real speed.

I don't necessarily feel there is anything to be gained by turning early and banging the apex curb in South Bend. If your car is understeering you might have no choice but to do this. However, I prefer to turn just a touch late (like only 3-4 feet!), but very decisively, creating some rotation, a straighter exit line, and much reduced side load at track out than an early turn in offers. If you and your car can really carry a ton of speed here, you obviously have to turn earlier (this is true most anywhere), but for most of us I don't see the benefit. If anything, this turn is one where you have to FIGHT the urge to turn early.

On that last point, there is a subtle trick that can help you with this. As you exit the last right hander of the Esses, do not be in a hurry to force the car to the right edge of the track for turn in to SB. As you crest the small knoll just after the last Ess, your left tires should be mid track. Then you can smoothly transition to the right, and if you've timed it right, just about the time you GET to the right edge is the time to turn into SB. In other words, if there are any straight lines in there, you are holding the car back and scrubbing speed. It should be one S-shaped line from the exit of the last Ess to the entry to SB. this is not only very smooth, but efficient... meaning fast.

Like all crashes at track out, the mistake was made in the opposite part of the corner; at turn in.
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Old 03-19-2008, 01:47 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by sbarton View Post
OT: John, is that your new car in your avatar? Slight upgrade from the 944?

-Scott
Ha!

I'd like to say that I'd created that kind of personal liquidity, but alas, it is only mine in the sense that I have been entrusted with its care & feeding. The avatar is to show of my graphics work!
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Old 03-19-2008, 09:36 PM
  #33  
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I think the save was made possible because you used the let go of the stearing wheel technique. All hands off and let the castor be your friend. No harm No foul!!
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Old 03-19-2008, 10:52 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan View Post
Ha!

there is a subtle trick that can help you with this. As you exit the last right hander of the Esses, do not be in a hurry to force the car to the right edge of the track for turn in to SB. As you crest the small knoll just after the last Ess, your left tires should be mid track. Then you can smoothly transition to the right, and if you've timed it right, just about the time you GET to the right edge is the time to turn into SB. In other words, if there are any straight lines in there, you are holding the car back and scrubbing speed. It should be one S-shaped line from the exit of the last Ess to the entry to SB. this is not only very smooth, but efficient... meaning fast.

Hi John,

I still use your excellent turn-by-turn tutorial of WGI whenever I have the opportunity to instruct there.

I'm wondering whether you've created - or would consider writing - a similar tool for VIR?

Richard
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:26 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by richard glickel. View Post
Yeah, and the only difference between daytime and night-time is sunlight. The only difference between swimming and drowning is keeping your head above water . . . unless, of course, you're in a submarine, in which case you can remain submerged for a long time, much longer than if you were snorkling or scuba diving . . . .

The only difference between walking and running is pace, although there are different shoes for walking as opposed to running and there are some people who walk really fast, but they're rarely faster than an average jogger even. I think most dogs can walk faster than joggers - but, cats don't walk as fast as most dogs, mainly because they've smaller and have shorter legs. Otherwise there's no difference.
And your point is what? To keep it up?
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:36 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by gums View Post
And your point is what? To keep it up?
You can't judge someone's ability by a post of a screw-up, particularly when the person says "I screwed up."

We all make mistakes. Everyone does.

Some people post videos of mediocre driving and implicitly brag about their skills or ask for praise. These people, in my opinion, do not "get it."

Others post videos and ask for criticism, or they post their screw-ups so others can learn from their errors.

It is wrong to use a video clip of a mistake where the person says "watch my screw up" to extrapolate about the person's driving skills in general.

Of course this screw-up was miserable. }{ turned in way late, and even then didn't realize that the late turn in was the majority of the problem. Of course it was a combination of skill and luck that kept him out of the wall on the left (or the flagger's station). However, it would be wrong of you to watch this little clip and say that the driver needs to back off and imply that he lacks skill. Maybe he does need to back off, and maybe he lacks key skills, but you can't make that judgment based upon this little clip.

In short, don't dig your heels in too deep based upon your viewing of this very short clip, just as nobody should make snap decisions about other drivers based upon isolated incidents. You need to see the whole picture and consider all the facts. Unfortunately, you do not have access to them.

At least he didn't blame his poor driving on mechanical problems with his tires or his car.
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Old 03-20-2008, 12:21 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by TD in DC View Post
You can't judge someone's ability by a post of a screw-up, particularly when the person says "I screwed up."

We all make mistakes. Everyone does.

Some people post videos of mediocre driving and implicitly brag about their skills or ask for praise. These people, in my opinion, do not "get it."

Others post videos and ask for criticism, or they post their screw-ups so others can learn from their errors.

It is wrong to use a video clip of a mistake where the person says "watch my screw up" to extrapolate about the person's driving skills in general.

Of course this screw-up was miserable. }{ turned in way late, and even then didn't realize that the late turn in was the majority of the problem. Of course it was a combination of skill and luck that kept him out of the wall on the left (or the flagger's station). However, it would be wrong of you to watch this little clip and say that the driver needs to back off and imply that he lacks skill. Maybe he does need to back off, and maybe he lacks key skills, but you can't make that judgment based upon this little clip.

In short, don't dig your heels in too deep based upon your viewing of this very short clip, just as nobody should make snap decisions about other drivers based upon isolated incidents. You need to see the whole picture and consider all the facts. Unfortunately, you do not have access to them.

At least he didn't blame his poor driving on mechanical problems with his tires or his car.
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Old 03-20-2008, 12:43 AM
  #38  
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I'll give you some company, }{;

I suffered my own bout of cranial flatus there a couple years back. I had sometime recently graduated to taking that turn "flat." Matter of fact, if I am in the groove and/or the mood, I can be "flat" from the exit of 5b until hitting the brakes for Oak Tree. This one particular time, I just spaced.

On this lap, I steamed up the Esses as usual, but for some reason lollygaged my way into the turn-in for SB. My limp-wristed effort at said turn in did not afford me the proper amount of rotation, and so had me heading toward the track out point on a rather less than parallel heading, and with an annoying case of "The Floats." That being the state where you have not set the car in earnest, and it feels less than completely hunkered down. I hate when that happens!

As I neared the exit curb with post alimentary canal cinched up tight, it dawned on me that I was indeed not parallel to the curb yet, had entirely too much turning left to do, perhaps not enough pavement in which to do it, and had just a bit of time left to make a decision.

I'm quite proud to say that I have no idea what it is like to hit the tire wall on the left side of the dip, nor do I know what it feels like to get myself completely behind the car in trying to make the save from a huge tank slapper. I quite possibly could have completed my Silk Purse, but I chose instead to straighten the wheel and go straight off into the infield at full chat. I was further smart enough to go WELL into the infield so as to avoid the nasty bog at the bottom of the dip.

The moral of the story? It's a real turn, so TURN, dumbass.
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Old 03-20-2008, 05:58 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by TD in DC View Post
You can't judge someone's ability by a post of a screw-up, particularly when the person says "I screwed up."

We all make mistakes. Everyone does.

Some people post videos of mediocre driving and implicitly brag about their skills or ask for praise. These people, in my opinion, do not "get it."

Others post videos and ask for criticism, or they post their screw-ups so others can learn from their errors.

It is wrong to use a video clip of a mistake where the person says "watch my screw up" to extrapolate about the person's driving skills in general.

Of course this screw-up was miserable. }{ turned in way late, and even then didn't realize that the late turn in was the majority of the problem. Of course it was a combination of skill and luck that kept him out of the wall on the left (or the flagger's station). However, it would be wrong of you to watch this little clip and say that the driver needs to back off and imply that he lacks skill. Maybe he does need to back off, and maybe he lacks key skills, but you can't make that judgment based upon this little clip.

In short, don't dig your heels in too deep based upon your viewing of this very short clip, just as nobody should make snap decisions about other drivers based upon isolated incidents. You need to see the whole picture and consider all the facts. Unfortunately, you do not have access to them.

At least he didn't blame his poor driving on mechanical problems with his tires or his car.
Normally I don't comment on a person's driving mistakes on Rennlist, because of the exact reasons you describe in your post.
If you look at these three videos that }{ has posted on Youtube, I think that you will see some striking simalarities in the videos.

}{, what I see in the videos is that you are reacting to what is happening, not antincipating what is going to happen. That is why you are so late with your corrections. You are getting into "tank slapper" mode and you are no longer in control. You keep making the same mistakes and reacting in the same way. Now, maybe you're the luckiest guy in the world and you will never make contact with anything. I think if you continue driving in this manner,your luck will run out. I'm not trying to bust your *****, but I think some instruction from a good racer/driver would really help you out.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Last edited by flatsics; 03-20-2008 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 03-20-2008, 07:32 PM
  #40  
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Now, maybe you're the luckiest guy in the world and you will never make contact with anything. I think if you continue driving in this manner,your luck will run out. I'm not trying to bust your *****, but I think some instruction from a good racer/driver would really help you out.

+1

At least someone else is willing to be objective and actually help you instead of encouraging you to keep it up.
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Old 03-20-2008, 09:28 PM
  #41  
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Interesting;

TD, you are right. It's not necessarily productive to be so terse. Richard, you are right. There's a lot more to it than such a simplistic statement. Gums, you are right. It was not quite a good save.

I find it interesting that there are kernels of truth in everyone's statement, except perhaps those who labeled it a nice save. It really wasn't. The car pretty much straightened itself out, following the old dictim of simply letting go of the wheel when things go wrong.

Gums, while he may be somewhat lacking in tact, is not wrong. The other two clips posted by Flatsics show me the same rather disturbing trend, and I too have concern for the future, given this body of evidence. As stated, there seems to be a decided lack of anticipation. This is illustrated in several ways; The timing of the steering corrections, which are far too late. The force of the corrections when they do occur are quite short of the necessary alacrity.

I'm sure that }{ did not expect to take a beating here, nor should he have. However, anyone who offers up stuff like this publicly learns this lesson, myself included. Hopefully, the end result will be a lot of introspection, for that is exactly what is needed in my always less than humble opinion. I know that Richard & TD have gone through the same process. I have as well, fortunately because of far less dramatic incidents.

Far from joining in on any dogpile, I just want to help keep a Brother from biffing if I can.
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Old 03-20-2008, 10:29 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by richard glickel. View Post
Yeah, and the only difference between daytime and night-time is sunlight. The only difference between swimming and drowning is keeping your head above water . . . unless, of course, you're in a submarine, in which case you can remain submerged for a long time, much longer than if you were snorkling or scuba diving . . . .

The only difference between walking and running is pace, although there are different shoes for walking as opposed to running and there are some people who walk really fast, but they're rarely faster than an average jogger even. I think most dogs can walk faster than joggers - but, cats don't walk as fast as most dogs, mainly because they've smaller and have shorter legs. Otherwise there's no difference.


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Old 03-21-2008, 12:09 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by flatsics View Post
. I think if you continue driving in this manner,your luck will run out. I'm not trying to bust your *****, but I think some instruction from a good racer/driver would really help you out.
I like the quiet hands in all of those. Well, except for the jerk in each one right before the spin

Oh, and I'm glad you missed that tire wall!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

-td
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Old 03-21-2008, 12:36 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by flatsics View Post
Normally I don't comment on a person's driving mistakes on Rennlist, because of the exact reasons you describe in your post.
If you look at these three videos that }{ has posted on Youtube, I think that you will see some striking simalarities in the videos.

}{, what I see in the videos is that you are reacting to what is happening, not antincipating what is going to happen. That is why you are so late with your corrections. You are getting into "tank slapper" mode and you are no longer in control. You keep making the same mistakes and reacting in the same way. Now, maybe you're the luckiest guy in the world and you will never make contact with anything. I think if you continue driving in this manner,your luck will run out. I'm not trying to bust your *****, but I think some instruction from a good racer/driver would really help you out.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
Originally Posted by gums View Post
Now, maybe you're the luckiest guy in the world and you will never make contact with anything. I think if you continue driving in this manner,your luck will run out. I'm not trying to bust your *****, but I think some instruction from a good racer/driver would really help you out.

+1

At least someone else is willing to be objective and actually help you instead of encouraging you to keep it up.
flatsics, I know you were responding to me. Gums, I don't know whether you were responding to me, but I will assume you were.

I suggest that you both should reread my post. If you read my post, there is no way you can even suggest that I was not objective.

I didn't say that }{ was a great driver or a lousy driver. I said that you can't tell much about }{ from the clip except that he was driving miserably in the clip, which, afterall, is exactly what }{ said when he posted it.

Gums, I am sure that your posts are well intentioned (I am nearly 100% positive), but you really miss the mark in my book.

If you had said that "you were really driving miserably in this clip, and here is what you did wrong," I would agree with you completely. His driving in that clip sucked. He turned in way, way late, and he was really behind the car. Worse yet, he thought he was early even after he posted it. These are all fair comments. I didn't even say nice save. The truth is that there should not have been a need to save the car in the first place (I don't think he was too hot into the corner, I just think he was way, way, way too late). I also think }{ was incredibly lucky. No objection from me on that point either. I agree. However, my objection is to you extrapolating from the clip to say that he is a bad driver in general. I was objective because I said maybe he is or maybe he is not, but neither YOU nor anybody else can make that judgment by merely looking at a few clips on the Internet.

Why do I care? Because }{ is a friend? No, not at all. He is a friend, but I doubt he is sitting around crying about criticism from the Internet. He can take it. I give him crap all the time. You should hear me get onto him about T10 at Summit Point. I am annoying as hell about it because I will not leave him alone even though I know he is tired of hearing it from me. So my comment has nothing to do with defending his driving. He can do that himself. However, it does annoy me when someone is courageous enough to share a f*ck up with all the rest of us and then people start suggesting that, because there is a clip of sh*tty driving on the Internet, the driver is, therefore, a sh*tty driver. Wrong. Faulty reasoning. As I said, maybe he is a sh*tty driver, maybe he is a great driver, but it would be wrong of you to make that judgment from a clip on the Internet.

If people get into the habit of making judgments about people in general if they post a mistake, they will not post mistakes anymore. Why would you? The consequences would be too high. I love it when people post mistakes. Why? Because I learn far more from vicarious experiencing the mistakes of others than I do by watching 100 mistake-free laps. We should encourage people to post clips of their errors. We can criticize the errors, but it would be a mistake to start going after the person in general due to the fact that they made an error. If you think the great drivers do not make errors, you are mistaken. If you think that you do not make errors, you are either (1) a sunday driver (not that there is anything wrong with that), (2) delusional, or (3) a liar. So, there should be no question that great drivers make errors. Therefore, it follows that we cannot assume that someone is a sh*tty driver merely because they made an error that they posted on the Internet. THAT is my point.

Now, with respect to multiple errors posted on the Internet, that just shows that he isn't ashamed of showing his mistakes. Have you not made that many mistakes over a period of years? Why haven't YOU posted your errors? Ashamed? Too proud? Why not?

I would much rather see someone post errors and say "boy I screwed up and I got lucky" than post seriously mediocre laps displaying squid like tendencies (high hp point and shoot driving) while bragging about passing lower HP cars. That is annoying and says much more about the driver than posting a clip of a screw up.

I like this forum because i have learned so much from people who are far better than I am or ever will be. I jumped in here not because I have a problem with you, Gums, but because I do not want to see our learning opportunities squelched because people are too afraid to post anything other than the "perfect" lap.

Three of the best drivers I know who frequent this forum -- Chris Cervelli, Larry H and Forklift (Jim Evans) -- have all made serious errors in the past. If they only posted clips of their errors, would this make them bad drivers? No, of course not. You have to see the entire picture, not just a few moments out of hours of driving.

And no, there is absolutely no reason why this conversation would touch a nerve with me, as you can tell by the brevity of my post.

Peace to all

Last edited by TD in DC; 03-21-2008 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 03-21-2008, 12:46 AM
  #45  
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Hey John, I posted before I saw your response. Intent is everything, and criticising someone's driving, if done with the right intent, does them a favor. So, constructive criticism is always welcomed. I don't think anyone here meant any of their criticism in any way other than constructive and helpful. This forum tends to be pretty mature on that point, thankfully. I agree that there are usually kernals of truth in all sides of a discussion.
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