Solo in Green at Driver Eds?
02-16-2008, 09:02 PM
#16
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I think different regions will have different rules. In ours, green doesn't solo at all. Once you've been moved out of green, you go to blue with an instructor, and it takes two instructors to sign off on a solo.
I think this works well, and the Maverick Region's safety record confirms this. We never had an incident (to my knowledge) until abot 18 months ago when an Evo flipped.
It's not only going solo, it is also moving up in speed. Blue runs a bit faster than green, yellow runs faster than blue, then white, then red. Things happen a lot faster in the higher groups.
Also, someone who had a good first day, may not have a good second day, or may tire the second afternoon, or whatever. I'd rather let that person have at least 2 or 3 proven days under their belt before they're turned loose on their own. The added instructor time, particularly having more than one, can't hurt.
I think this works well, and the Maverick Region's safety record confirms this. We never had an incident (to my knowledge) until abot 18 months ago when an Evo flipped.
It's not only going solo, it is also moving up in speed. Blue runs a bit faster than green, yellow runs faster than blue, then white, then red. Things happen a lot faster in the higher groups.
Also, someone who had a good first day, may not have a good second day, or may tire the second afternoon, or whatever. I'd rather let that person have at least 2 or 3 proven days under their belt before they're turned loose on their own. The added instructor time, particularly having more than one, can't hurt.
I agree, this is what Suncoast does. Seat time and instruction is very important. No one goes from green to solo in a weekend in our club. they go to blue which is a faster instructed level. After several days at that you need to be checked by another instructor then the Chief instructor for solo.
very safe learning curve.
egos need to be checked at the door and you need to be given time to learn and obtain experience, I think moving someone who truely is green to solo on their first weekend does them an injustice.
02-16-2008, 09:53 PM
#17
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02-16-2008, 10:33 PM
#18
King of Cool
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While I kinda agree that you can have people to go solo very soon, I don't like the fact that by doing so, you'll most likely have solo drivers who have never done anything wrong.
What I mean by that is that then you'll have drivers driving solo who might not be prepared when the tail steps out all of a sudden, they don't know what do since they have never experience it. If you drove a lot with student and have in general more experience, hopefully you're more prepared.
That said, there are many instructors out there also who really have not much clue about really pushing it and handling a car at the limit or especially, over it.
I'm saying this because sooner or later, everyone will go over the limit.
What I mean by that is that then you'll have drivers driving solo who might not be prepared when the tail steps out all of a sudden, they don't know what do since they have never experience it. If you drove a lot with student and have in general more experience, hopefully you're more prepared.
That said, there are many instructors out there also who really have not much clue about really pushing it and handling a car at the limit or especially, over it.
I'm saying this because sooner or later, everyone will go over the limit.
02-16-2008, 10:52 PM
#19
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I agree, this is what Suncoast does. Seat time and instruction is very important. No one goes from green to solo in a weekend in our club. they go to blue which is a faster instructed level. After several days at that you need to be checked by another instructor then the Chief instructor for solo.
very safe learning curve.
egos need to be checked at the door and you need to be given time to learn and obtain experience, I think moving someone who truely is green to solo on their first weekend does them an injustice.
very safe learning curve.
egos need to be checked at the door and you need to be given time to learn and obtain experience, I think moving someone who truely is green to solo on their first weekend does them an injustice.
FWIW, I had one (very experienced) instructor (joint PCA and BMWCCA) who mentioned that his general policy was to refrain from signing off anyone having less than 10 track days. He was an excellent instructor IMO. As a beginner myself, I don't view his policy as either Draconian or likely to cause beginners to refrain from doing DE's...if it were a general policy across PCA run DE's. Many $$$'s says the average novice who had this fella for their first 10 DE days would be head and shoulders above those who were signed off and out there solo 50 - 75 % of the time in their first 10 DE days.
Mike
02-16-2008, 11:55 PM
#20
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DarkSide, what is the rush?
Even if you are the quickest in your group and lap the field twice, you are still a novice.
As soon as you are ready to be moved up, some instructor will notice..... in the meanwhile, just enjoy on being the quickest learner of the Green group, I know I did......
Even if you are the quickest in your group and lap the field twice, you are still a novice.
As soon as you are ready to be moved up, some instructor will notice..... in the meanwhile, just enjoy on being the quickest learner of the Green group, I know I did......
02-17-2008, 04:49 AM
#21
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Thanks Boston,
But I'm not a Greenie in the event - just an organizer.
I have been around many organizers, Chief Instructors, Bursars/Registers, Safety teams -- and just like knowing the other opinions out there.
I believe the green group should always have two sets of eyes in every car. The novice in a helmet must get use to losing their peripheral vision and learn where to place their eyes to see as much as they can. I feel it is unfair to the others in the run group when one car will only have a novice with one set of eyes.
No rush here. I like folks doing many DEs before they become an instructor. I know many are looking to save some $s, but we like collecting full freight! A DE with all instructors would never cover the cost of the track after all.
Discussions like this are great. It's nice seeing other point of views. Maybe I'm feeling stubborn in the one I have, but that's okay -- just like each opinion here is fine. One thing is, I think the folks that have not had instructors with them for any true amount of time, are probably missing out on something. Seat time is great, but having another being to share that special moment....
Personally, I like seeing the whole picture of a Driver Ed. Much work goes into the successful ones. Maybe I'll start a new thread - this weekend Florida Citrus is at Roebling Road - and what a fantastic DE they are putting on!
But I'm not a Greenie in the event - just an organizer.
I have been around many organizers, Chief Instructors, Bursars/Registers, Safety teams -- and just like knowing the other opinions out there.
I believe the green group should always have two sets of eyes in every car. The novice in a helmet must get use to losing their peripheral vision and learn where to place their eyes to see as much as they can. I feel it is unfair to the others in the run group when one car will only have a novice with one set of eyes.
No rush here. I like folks doing many DEs before they become an instructor. I know many are looking to save some $s, but we like collecting full freight! A DE with all instructors would never cover the cost of the track after all.
Discussions like this are great. It's nice seeing other point of views. Maybe I'm feeling stubborn in the one I have, but that's okay -- just like each opinion here is fine. One thing is, I think the folks that have not had instructors with them for any true amount of time, are probably missing out on something. Seat time is great, but having another being to share that special moment....
Personally, I like seeing the whole picture of a Driver Ed. Much work goes into the successful ones. Maybe I'll start a new thread - this weekend Florida Citrus is at Roebling Road - and what a fantastic DE they are putting on!
Last edited by DarkSideDE; 02-17-2008 at 05:40 AM.
02-17-2008, 10:25 AM
#22
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I've been instructing for 23 years and I still value having someone with equal or more skills in the right seat from time to time. The rush to run solo is detrimental to learning the fundamentals of track driving yet so many are way too quick to try and get promoted. I see lots of white group (permanently solo'd) drivers hammering around the track making every novice mistake in the book. And without proper instruction, they will never really "get it". I guess that you know how I feel about signing a beginning green student off.
I agree... Even at the next level... I'm not in a hurry to sign off someone to go solo. I might sign him off... on Sunday afternoon... if he's been driving "under control", and after I've taken him out in my car/followed by a session with him driving in his group. I do stay and "watch"... to see how he's does driving solo.The only exception is a driver that's been assigned to the wrong group (ie. should have been in advanced), then I go to the chief instructor to move him into the proper group.
I've even had... a few, so-called advanced students... that I haven't signed off to go solo. In most instances... their cars were saving their butts...
02-17-2008, 10:41 AM
#23
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There are green group guys/ladies I've gotten in the car with and been very impressed. There have been blue group people I've gotten in the car with and white-knuckled it. There have been instructors spin in front of me in the instructors group. Everyone's different.
I agree with Petu. Mistakes are where you learn and initially you need instructions on those mistakes to at least know what caused them. Also, if your goal is to safely reduce your time, why wouldn't more input be better? I was racing at Sebring last week and played my in-car video for at least 3 people to get feedback..... Of course, everyone had a different opinion about 17
I agree with Petu. Mistakes are where you learn and initially you need instructions on those mistakes to at least know what caused them. Also, if your goal is to safely reduce your time, why wouldn't more input be better? I was racing at Sebring last week and played my in-car video for at least 3 people to get feedback..... Of course, everyone had a different opinion about 17
02-17-2008, 11:06 AM
#24
Three Wheelin'
I like folks doing many DEs before they become an instructor. I know many are looking to save some $s, but we like collecting full freight! A DE with all instructors would never cover the cost of the track after all.
Besides going out with students, instructors will take their student out in their own cars to reinforce what the student has been learning, and most times, in a lower run group than we would normally go out with. When I have a student for a full day, I invariably miss going out with my own run group at least one or two sessions, as I will also spend time with the student when we get back into the pits, to discuss the good and the bad of the last session. Considering what it really costs all of us for a DE day, the entry fee is the least of my expenses.
I'm also glad that you like "folks doing many DE's before they become a instructor"/in my case I was doing DE's for over ten years before I became a instructor and my decision was based on "giving back to PCA" some of the time that all my instructors had spent with me.
02-17-2008, 11:17 AM
#25
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I'm also glad that you like "folks doing many DE's before they become a instructor"/in my case I was doing DE's for over ten years before I became a instructor and my decision was based on "giving back to PCA" some of the time that all my instructors had spent with me.
02-17-2008, 11:42 AM
#26
Three Wheelin'
Gary, you have no idea how rewarding instructing can be, nor the sense of accomplishment when one of your students gets it right.....
Maybe now is the time to start a thread about "cost of living" increases for instructors......
Maybe now is the time to start a thread about "cost of living" increases for instructors......
02-17-2008, 12:00 PM
#27
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I never understood the rush to solo. An instructor telling me it was okay to solo made me feel good, but I always had them get back in the car with me. I do remember a pattern of going solo in one session on the second day and then getting the instructor back in the car for the later sessions. I figured I was paying to learn and I wanted to get my money's worth. Hell, if my race car had two seats, you can bet your last dollar I'd have someone going around with me at DE's now.
02-17-2008, 06:45 PM
#28
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02-17-2008, 07:31 PM
#30
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