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Best way to learn..schools or DE???

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Old 02-11-2008 | 06:30 PM
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All good advice, from experienced sources. Here's my take. Do a bunch of DE's in your car, and learn not to wreck it. Then step up and take a few real schools in race cars. You'll never learn to pass or maneuver otherwise. Unfortunately, my observation is that the PCA DE structure is not a good stepping stone into racing, it just doesn't teach traffic, passing and start skills which accredited schools are required to teach. As much karting, in sprint karts, as you can get is a great adjunct. By the time you get a year or two of that under your belt I'm hoping that you will realize that modifying your 928 is probably the worst thing you could do. It is not cost effective, it will use up all of your potential seat time, and in the end it won't even be a very good race car. You'll figure out what to do in time, just get your feet in.
Old 02-11-2008 | 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by gums
It is not cost effective, it will use up all of your potential seat time, and in the end it won't even be a very good race car. .
You just opened up a can of worms you didn't want to open up.

They can be setup to run ridiculously fast and run with all but the very fastest Porsche racecars and are a great platform to race in.
Old 02-11-2008 | 06:52 PM
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maybe so, if done by someone with experience. The money would be better spent on seat time, hands down. And in the end, I'd still rather drive your Alfa.
Old 02-11-2008 | 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by gums
maybe so, if done by someone with experience. The money would be better spent on seat time, hands down. And in the end, I'd still rather drive your Alfa.
Money on seat time is of course a great thing I don't deny it. However the 928 group will be out with pitchforks over the 928 not being a good racecar.

Alfa is my uncles and yes I'd take it over any 928 out there.
Old 02-11-2008 | 09:07 PM
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That's a famous car, is Herb your uncle? If so, I believe my father was his dentist!
Old 02-11-2008 | 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by gums
That's a famous car, is Herb your uncle? If so, I believe my father was his dentist!
Nope, the car ended up in CA in storage and sat for a long time. The owner approached my uncle and he quickly snagged it. It shares a shop with a TZ1, and a few other italian cars. Hopefully once the TZ1 is restored I'll be able to get some seat time in the GTV.
Old 02-11-2008 | 09:46 PM
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Brian -

Like you I got hooked right away, and like you I knew I wanted to race. In 2006 I ran two events in a Ferrari 456, which was an incredible blast but clearly not too bright. I bought a 944 because I knew it would be safe, relatively inexpensive and good to learn in. I haven't been disappointed. I invested in safety equipment and the suspension over the winter and in 2007 I ran about two dozen track days with several different organizations. At the end of last season I ran my first race, in NASA 944 Cup. And yes, I finished last.

I would definitely recommend a momentum car like the 944. You can't use power to cover up mistakes and you get a little extra time to react. And since it's so easy to get into trouble in a powerful car it just takes a lot longer to get it right. I'm guessing that it would have taken me at least another year in the Ferrari to get to where I am now, even assuming I didn't do something spectacularly stupid to myself or the car.

I think DE is valuable for learning car control skills. I was able to commit to a heavy DE schedule last year and it still took almost all season before I even considered racing. And I wouldn't have raced at all last year if the NASA guys hadn't told me they thought I was ready. It's true that DE doesn't teach racecraft, but most of my instructors have been sympathetic and helpful to students whose goal is to race.

As for schools, I took the Skippy 3-day school before the start of last season, which was too soon. It was was great but it would have been more valuable if I had waited until I had at least 15 track days.

Hope this helps.

Disclaimer: All of the above is just one rookie's experience, so of course I defer to those who have been doing this far longer.
Old 02-11-2008 | 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Circuit Motorsports
Money on seat time is of course a great thing I don't deny it. However the 928 group will be out with pitchforks over the 928 not being a good racecar.

Old 02-12-2008 | 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by IcemanG17
...being that spec 944 is a P-car I'm sure it would be more expensive than Miata...
I would not say that at all. To run competitivly in spec miata takes alot more expensive motors that in 944 spec. Junkyard motors can win in 944 spec, but not in spec miata. Spec miata used to be cheap, but it has become too popular for its own good and this has driven up costs dramaticly if you want to run in the pack. It can stil be cheap if you just want to be a back marker. Even so not any cheaper than 944 spec.

http://944spec.org is the 944 spec national home page. Ken Huey is the Northern Cal 944 spec director and he an some other 944 guys ran a spec prepare 944 in 25hrs of Thunderhill. They needed one tire change and about 1/2 qt of oil over the entire 25 hr distance. Otherwise the car ran and just needed gas.
Old 02-12-2008 | 02:05 PM
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Too many more informed opinions than mine out there, so I'll just give some facts from my own experience...
  • Before any DE's, attended the Skip Barber 3-day racing school.
  • 1st DE - promoted to Blue.
  • 2nd DE - different track and region; finished in Blue
  • 3rd DE - yet another (3rd) track; finished Blue Solo
  • 4th DE - back to the first track; finished in Yellow
  • 5th DE - first track again; finished in Yellow (AI comment: "that close to White check ride").

Only two offs, each at the same spot during the 3rd DE, caused by not anticipating brake fade.

The Skippy school taught me trail braking, throttle steer, and car dynamics during loss of grip. DE's talk about these things, but so far no "how to" instruction during hot laps (probably a good thing).

The school also tested physical/mental stamina, with some run sessions going more twice as long as DE sessions.

If I had a chance to do it all over again, I'd still do the school first.
Old 02-12-2008 | 05:23 PM
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Gums
Good advice....but we do have different views on the 928's ability as a "race" car....however it is quite easy for us 928ers to jump on the Anderson-Kibort bandwagon, since both of those guys are exceptional drivers & would do well in just about any car....

Hmm the 3 day race school sounds like FUN......pricey, but fun.....

My 928 is an automatic, 20 years old and mostly bone stock (except for wheels)....it gets around the track just fine, but clearly is NOT a track beast.....it is a nice driver in my opinon....a car I can drive to DE's and have some fun, or clean up and win at a PCA concours....kind of a jack of all trades.....which has its tradeoffs....it gets pretty dirty from DE-autocross, which makes more work for concours....but its still fun to get out there...

I have an angle on a "inexpensive" 5 spd 928 that I wouldn't feel so guilty abusing on the track....so my plan is to purchase that this year, make it reliable & start using that for DE's....& slowly turn it into a race 928....of course buying one thats already done is far cheaper.... But putting a novice like me in a serious race 928....I'm not sure thats a good idea...but driving cautiously on street tires for a while I should be okay...we'll see!
Old 02-12-2008 | 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by IcemanG17
I have an angle on a "inexpensive" 5 spd 928 that I wouldn't feel so guilty abusing on the track....so my plan is to purchase that this year, make it reliable & start using that for DE's....& slowly turn it into a race 928....of course buying one thats already done is far cheaper.... But putting a novice like me in a serious race 928....I'm not sure thats a good idea...but driving cautiously on street tires for a while I should be okay...we'll see!
Look for Vtach over on the 928 forum, he is selling his and it is 100% track sorted and legal for both NASA (has a NASA logbook) and PCA I believe.



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