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Best way to learn..schools or DE???

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Old 02-07-2008 | 06:32 PM
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Default Best way to learn..schools or DE???

So I am just getting into big track driving...mostly in DE's in my bone stock 928...I've done 3 DE's and a bunch of autocrosses....

My goal is to build a 928 track-race car this year and hopefully start racing in local SCCA next year.....

Whats the "best way to learn how to drive well in a racing enviroment....am I better off doing more DE's in my own car....or spending more money on one of the multiple day racing schools that are around? Another option is to hire a local racer to give private lessons during a DE or similar event?

It seems DE's in my current car then race car once its running is the cheapest way to get maximum seat time on the track.....but are the schools worth the extra expense?

Other ideas?
Old 02-07-2008 | 06:37 PM
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My $ .02 worth
With only 3 DE's under your belt you still have quite a bit to learn before you jump into the shark pool (racing). Take this year to get better driving your 928 in DE's and maybe next year or over the winter build your race car and try it out in a faster run group (If you qualify) and see if you like the experience. It's all about seat time.
I'm sure there will be others with more experience that will chime in.
For me I have about 50 DE's and am just now thinking about racin'
Good Luck !
Old 02-07-2008 | 06:58 PM
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Schools are better for learning, DE is really practice. At a place like Bondurant, you get over 100 laps in a day (in the advanced program) with good critique of your technique. You also aren't the one checking pressures or doing any repairs, so it is easier to stay focused.
I started racing with neither, so it isn't necessary to survive. But, I'd still say school. AS
Old 02-07-2008 | 06:59 PM
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DEs with an instructor sitting next to you are the best way to learn to handle the car. For learning how to race I'd suggest an SCCA school, where they assume you can drive and teach racing protocol.
Old 02-07-2008 | 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Alexander Stemer
Schools are better for learning, DE is really practice. At a place like Bondurant, you get over 100 laps in a day (in the advanced program) with good critique of your technique. You also aren't the one checking pressures or doing any repairs, so it is easier to stay focused.
I started racing with neither, so it isn't necessary to survive. But, I'd still say school. AS
I agree with the above. I am in the same boat, i have two DE's at the end of last year, I am hooked big time, and just can't wait for spring to come to the Ohio wast lands. I called Mid-Ohio and talked to David Roush who runs the driving school. I told him I want to take the high performance driving school this year. He recommends taking the multi day course because you learn skills in segments. He also recommends as much track time as you can afford which means a blend of DE's. But going to a school will also give you some professional guidance. so I am going to do the program this year.
Old 02-07-2008 | 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by gbaker
DEs with an instructor sitting next to you are the best way to learn to handle the car. For learning how to race I'd suggest an SCCA school, where they assume you can drive and teach racing protocol.
Correction (if I may ) DE'ing with an instructor that has race experience is the way to learn. There's a hundred pages (give or take a couple) here about who makes a better instructor. As an ex-racer I have my opinions we don't need to have the discussion again. I will just say that a good racer CAN make a great instructor (I think I am). In talking with previous students, its amazing the things that aren't being taught by DE only instructors. An again its opinion as to whether or not thats a bad thing, but getting around a track safely, and the ability to "race" a track are to different things (IMHO)

With 2 and 3 DE's no one should be looking towards racing unless you are just a brilliant driver and or just want to get hurt or have your a$$ handed to you the first race session. SCCA racing is a grudge match and not to be entered into lightly. Spend a good amount of time learning how to drive, learning how to push your car etc and then assess whether or not you think you're ready. Go to races, see and talk to people. Racing is fun, but its a HUGE investment in BOTH time and money.......don't be short on either!
Old 02-07-2008 | 11:11 PM
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If you really want to learn to race, get a racing kart and go racing every weekend. I guarantee you that you will be better after one year of serious kart racing then 5+ years of DE or many racing schools. If you have any ability at all, you will learn quickly in karts. Don't be turned off because they aren't cars. Don't have the big male ego and think you have to race shifters (jumping right into a shifter kart is not terribly unlike jumping directly into an F1 car). Don't be turned off because they don't have springs and dampers. Karts will teach you how to set up your chassis (it's the process and the feel that count way more than the specific adjustments). You will learn preparation. You will learn to tune. And you will damned sure learn to race or you will find you aren't cut out for it. I learned way more in karting than any other form or driving/racing. I leaned on my karting experience in my SCCA school about 95% compared with all of my other experience.

For point of reference, my experience is (in order):

Autocross
Karting
Commercial racing school
DE
SCCA licensing school
SCCA regional club racing
DE Instructor

In talking with previous students, its amazing the things that aren't being taught by DE only instructors.
Shoot, being on the track with students I'm shocked at some of the lines being taught. I've wondered if Stevie Wonder was instructing some students so bad were some of the lines.
Old 02-07-2008 | 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Geo
Shoot, being on the track with students I'm shocked at some of the lines being taught. I've wondered if Stevie Wonder was instructing some students so bad were some of the lines.
LOL.......thats to funny I agree whole heartedly! Although it wasn't Stevie, .......but BMW club instructors from what I've been told
Old 02-08-2008 | 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by 993inNC
LOL.......thats to funny I agree whole heartedly! Although it wasn't Stevie, .......but BMW club instructors from what I've been told
Around here, BMW instructors and PCA instructors are the same people. The two clubs are pretty much the same big happy family.
Old 02-08-2008 | 08:37 AM
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Somebody asked this same question about a year ago (and somebody a year before that, etc.). Try the search and you should find them - great opinions last time around. That being said...

You should try an all-advanced DE, such as Cups & Saucers at Watkins Glen, before jumping into the shark pool. 30 minutes on, 30 minutes off. Mixture of mostly racers and Black run group people. Last year, there were several "White Group" students that stayed in the garage because it was "too hairy" out there. That would give you a reasonable sense of what it will be like in race conditions.

For me personally, I wouldn't jump in until I was in Black (most advanced). I've been there for 3 years and still don't have the strong desire to jump in. Will I eventually? Sure. The reason I'm not has nothing to do with driving, it has to do with not wanting to deal with a tow vehicle and trailer.

I like the way my progression went. DE first with plenty of seat time over a variety of conditions. I've had extreme cold, extreme wet, extreme heat, etc. A typical DE gives 2 hours of track time in 1 day, which is about 110 laps at a place like Lime Rock (short course). An all-advanced DE like C & S is 7 hours of track time in 2 days, which is about 190 laps on a very long course.

I'd think that once you get into advanced (White / Black) and then do some racing schools - you'll have the skills and seat time (wisdom) you need. That's just the opinion of a relatively conservative...
Old 02-08-2008 | 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by RonCT
You should try an all-advanced DE, such as Cups & Saucers at Watkins Glen, before jumping into the shark pool. 30 minutes on, 30 minutes off. Mixture of mostly racers and Black run group people. Last year, there were several "White Group" students that stayed in the garage because it was "too hairy" out there. That would give you a reasonable sense of what it will be like in race conditions.
I for one hope the oblivious chicanes stay home this year. As for 30 on 30 off, a lot of us were 30 on, line up again, 30 on.. .. then pull in and sleep for a bit. .. and Cups is NOTHING like racing, trust me..

Originally Posted by IcemanG17
So I am just getting into big track driving...mostly in DE's in my bone stock 928...I've done 3 DE's and a bunch of autocrosses.
Unless you are a Shumacher clone you need mucho more seat time (and/or possibly good pro coaching) before the jump into racing, let alone be ready for an event like Cups.. That would be my advice to you Iceman.
JMO of course.
Old 02-08-2008 | 08:54 AM
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Aw Foooey;

Forget goals and time tables already. Just go drive and have fun. When I'm not chewing on your rear bumper in the corners, you'll be getting where you wanna be.
Old 02-08-2008 | 08:58 AM
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Gary - what I was trying to suggest was the closest thing in the DE world that I've experienced is probably Cups & Saucers. After only 3-4 DE's and being in Green is nothing close. Even being in White or Black is sedate compared to Cups & Saucers, thus the good White students staying in the garage 3 wide coming down the front straight over 100 MPH and all at different relative speeds, 3 diving in to 3 different lines into T1, with one way out on the rumble strip / runoff (on purpose), etc.
Old 02-08-2008 | 09:00 AM
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Gotcha, just didn't want him to in any way confuse Racing with what happens at a DE.. try 3 wide into, through, and out of the downhill at Limerock.. now that's a rush.
Old 02-08-2008 | 10:17 AM
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Ron and Gary, wow.....

Now, I really can't wait for Cups and Saucers......

I will try to stay out of your way.......

As far as the racing schools, I did Skippy racing programs, learned alot, "wacked" (not on purpose) a couple of their formula cars, and came out of there having more respect for track and high performance driving. Of course, it helped me move up the DE ladder quicker, having had those basics....


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