srf506

Sorry guys I don't care what the vaunted PCA says, this is a racing incident on track. They happen occasionally when two good drivers are racing close and running each other hard. If we penalize that then you ought to just make everything an autocross and send one driver out at a time to do timed laps. I also take exception with statements regarding daily drivers and people not wanting their cars damaged. Then what are they doing on track! If you can't afford to write one off every once in a while than you shouldn't be risking the car on a track with other cars. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you want to race buy/build a track car, leave your street car parked at the curb!

JR944

I'm a bit suprised and dissapointed you got the 13, Chris, at least based on the video.

I do think that as a whole, PCA CR Stewards have evolved a bit in their tendency to give 13/13 penalties. I personally know of at least 3 instances in the past year where car to car contact or tire wall contact was made (in all 3 cases with more than "it will rub out" damage) and no penalty assigned.

Unfortunately, my incident at Putnam was not one of those. Will post the video shortly and would love feedback from experienced racers.

Joe

PedroNole

Watched the video (a couple of times) and read all 47 previous posts....

1) Great driving.
2) I agree with Larry about the jury of peers or jury of stewards. It seems to me that the way the 13/13 is now, it's like the problem we have in our court system with mandatory sentences for certain crimes. The judge has no ability to interpret or take "circumstances" into account.
3) I immediately thought of how many times we've all been in your situation and luckily haven't had the other guy bobble....
4) It really is a shame that in a racing organization such as PCA that they couldn't look at your video and come to a different conclusion. I mean YOU HAD VIDEO!!!
5) Cup Car guy should at least buy you a new nose.

RSRRacer

Get Real. I hate it for Chris but the cup car either lost an axle or missed a shift. If he had brake checked Chris thats another story.

analogmike

This is not Spec Racer SCCA racing, people who want to bang-em-up can try that. We get people to take our their prized possesions and EXPECT to bring them home in the same condition. If you don't like that don't run with PCA.

I raced a National SCCA race in an SRF last year and it was a blast, I got hit hard enough to totally trash a 911 and kept racing, no billable damage to the car.

Premier Motorsp

Thank you all for the support and commentary.

I want to clarify that in general I am in favor of having the 13/13 rule. I think having a cut and dried means to remove people who act like idiots is a good thing.

I don't think PCA does a very good job using the 13/13 to accomplish this. For example, the 13/13 penalizes people who race with the club frequently much more severely than the occasional PCA racer. This is the exact opposite of what we should have.

PCA is also clinging to the fantasy that the participants in club racing are treating it like a casual hobby. Surely some are, but many do not. 99% of cars are trailered in, and the rules themselves make it impossible to be competitive in a drive-it-to-track car anyway. I think we need to get rid of this fantasy.

Why not reserve the 13/13 for the situation it was intended for? If somebody loses control or does something stupid and wrecks somebody else's stuff, then ask them to leave. Why does it have to be more complicated than that?

paradisenb

Chris, would you mind posting a pic of your car? Curiosity has me wondering how extensive the damage is from your love tap with the CC.

Sorry about your misfortune and what appears to be an unnecessary penalty.

MRW

Chris-

While I'm clearly not an expert (Daytona was my fourth CR weekend), I did drive all three races that weekend, have knowledge of that spot on the track, and would say that both cars should be at WOT, and there was no way for you to reasonably anticipate the missed shift/lift/whatever that occurred. Frankly, he should have been pulling you at that point. I really surprised you got tagged with the 13- I had the impression that some circumstantial judgement was finding its way into decisions, based on a few other incidents that occurred. Have you taken this to the top? Good luck, and hope to meet you at an event soon.

Premier Motorsp

I did appeal this 13/13.

I showed the video you have seen and also gave extensive data from my Motec system.

I was on WOT for 3.3 seconds and 330 feet prior to the impact, which was about 3 G.

Premier Motorsp

It was quite a bit more than a love tap. I don't have pictures.

My car required a new front bumper cover and the front panel of the tub had to be replaced.

MRW

Then WTF????

What was the reason they gave you? Failure to give racing room? (Not logical)

M758

If you think you car won't get wrecked in PCA race think again. Any time you race or even push hard the risk go up. If you think that contact won't happen in PCA because of the 13/13 rules you are living in fantasy land. Chris's situation is just an example of how fast stuff happens even excellent drivers like Chris just have no where to go. When it comes to the occasional bone head in a 13/13 group he gets to have at least two wrecks before he is excused. How does that help?

I don't race in a 13/13 group and I never expect to bring my car home perfect. I surely want to and fool myself into thinking that, but I realize that all it takes is one minor mistake or being in the wrong place at the wrong time and you have alot of repair work to do. I believe it just a part of racing that you could come back with a dented fender, scratch or tire donut. If you can't fathom that happening to you prized posession don't race it.

I don't look for contact and neither do the racers I race with, but if are running door handle to door handle in corner at 70mph side by side on limit all it takes a wiggle for a little body contact. I personally like the fact that I can run close and very hard and a slight error won't banish me forever. I feel the same way about others and would not want to see someone penalized for small mistake when running hard.

srf506

Mike,
IMHO I don't care what sanctioning body/class you're running. If you are going to have cars running like Chris was with that group of cars its not IF you will have contact but when. It is completely unreasonable to believe two human beings, in two complex pieces of machinery, being stressed to the limit, driving in a close pack, and pretty darn close to the limits, are perfect enough to handle every one of the variables, known and unknown, so perfectly as to avoid it. You certainly don't go out trying to make contact, but sometimes its just inevitable in a true racing situation. You might not have made contact in a particular session, or a particular weekend, but sooner or later you will.

Heck just track debris like tire *****, stones, bits and pieces of other cars, animals, or whatever can leave some pretty mean gashes and gouges in your "prized possession." Anyone who puts their car on track with that mentality shouldn't be there unless they're timed solo runs.

In SRF we did make a lot of contact. Part of it is the nature of the spec race car. They're deliberately built as equal as we can make them so you can't really drive away from anyone. Add to it the disparity of driver skill in the class, complete noobie to wiley crafty old veteran, and you're going to have contact due to driver mistakes, mechanical issues, debris on track, "red mist," or whatever. However, I was risking an asset that I could afford to completely walk away from if it was totalled, and although it was a prized possession, it was a tool for my entertainment and enjoyment, not my primary means of transportation.

Track cars have systems specifically designed for the track also. Brake compounds, tire compounds, cooling, lubrication, and other systems maybe street derivatives (or does the street imitate competition?) but suffice it to say those cars either have components regularly checked and serviced, or are specifically designed for that application. The added stress of taking a production car on track to run at the limits for 30 minutes or more isn't what that car was designed or intended for. Track miles are hard miles, you'll pay for them later, even if you get through unscathed.

A track car is also built with the thought that contact will happen, so how do I best design and prepare for it so I can quickly and easily repair the damage? Shear plates, quick fastener body sections, frames designed to have front and rear clips done to them are the norm in a track vehicle. In your street car it isn't.

If you want a "racing" situation that's completely harmless I guess you could try the original HSR rules of no passing in the corners, if you make contact with another car you're both gone for the weekend, that isn't really racing is it?

Flying Finn

Clearly it was the other car's fault, he either lifted or miss-shifted. In any case left you no time to do anything.

He had a little slide before that "lift" but it seemd that he got it corrected before he slowed down so that slide probably means nothing but maybe he broke something (an axle?) and that caused the slow down?

If I was a stewart, I would not penalyze anyone but most certainly not you.

Great driving, glad to see someone using the whole track!

4master

I could not disagree with you more on this point. If you were making this statement in regards to a DE, perhaps I could see your POV but even then it seems naive to believe that your "prized possesion" will/should/could be immune from the unexpected happening while on track.

It has been told to me numerous times - don't race/track a vehicle you can't afford to walk away from. Your expectations not withstanding, things do and will happen on track, as evidenced by CV's video.

You will be an unhappy camper if you rely on the 13/13 to keep your car free from incident. Don't be fooled into thinking that PCA racing is somehow safer or less prone to on track incidents. The 13/13 is helpful at providing a format to get rid of those drivers who pose a risk to other racers from bad judgement/skills/attitude etc....

I have what is quite possibly the ugliest 1985 944 SP2 racecar (term used loosely) that I have raced since 2002 and if I ball it up, blow it up, or burn it down, I won't have to sell my prized collection of Smurf figurines or take that night job at the quickie mart that has always looked so attractive, because it's paid for (yeah, I'm rich). If my car gets crunched, I've got an 87 924S and an 83 944 sitting in the garage just waiting for their shot at racing greatness (or at least racing).

I do have a fellow PCA racing buddy that along with a few other reasons, is selling his racecar because he's got $50K into it and can no longer afford to walk away if it meets an early demise.

Bottom line - if it's your prized possesion, what are you doing racing it?

4master
1985 944 SP2 #909
"if my car looks slow, that's because it is"