Im not a racer, but that should say it all. The car w/ the mis-shift gets the 13.

Sorry it happened.....that is a long trip from CO for that.

 

I agree with the majority here...you could not possibly have seen it coming.
With that said I am sure that they hit you with a 13/13 as that is there MO.
You have excellent driving skills and don't second think yourself there...racing accidents happen.
PCA is not always correct, but they do feel that someone must be at blame for this type of accident. Few rear enders go unpunished. Forget about it, fix your damage(sorry for your bad luck) and move on.
Been there...done that.

 

Gimme a break. If you got a penalty, then the rule must be "blame the victim."

Regards to all.

 

I agree with the majority, you just didn't have enough time to react. So who got the penalty?

I enjoyed watching you put up a valiant fight for the air-cooled guys...but I now understand why you want to move to a cup car...

-Greg

 

It appears obvious the driver ahead of you did something wrong. I missed shift is most likely . I am interested to find out how the ruling went because as hard as you are driving once off the straights catching and working to pass the cup cars who clearly can't drive to you're level why should you be penalized for their mistake . Especially coming right behind the cc that's the only smart place to be.

 

I got the 13, appealed it, and the decision stood.

I felt like the only possible reasonable decision in this case was to give neither driver a 13. Here is my reasoning:


The driver/car in front of me clearly had some sort of problem and stopped accelerating suddenly. I don't think anyone can deny this. I had every reason to believe, based on previous experience with the driver/car in this race, there was was no possible way I could accelerate hard enough to hit him on the exit of the corner. With this knowledge, I chose what I think was a very conservative following distance. The only way I was going to beat this guy was to worry him into a mistake.

At no time did the scrutineers tell me that I was following too closely, or putting myself at risk of a collision by using different lines etc. The 13/13 is supposed to penalize an error in judgment. What was my error in judgment?


The driver in front cannot reasonably be given a 13/13. All he has to say is that he had to lift because he was going to spin out otherwise. How can that be argued with? He could also say his transmission broke, or his foot slipped off the clutch, whatever. None of these are verifiable and even if they were, who can say that they were errors in judgment?

Now here is the bigger problem:

If I can get a 13 for this I can't race anymore. The only way I can protect myself from every possible scenario is to leave my car in the trailer. I suppose I could tool around at the back of the field as well. My other option would be to buy a super fast car and not have to race anybody.

If the driver I hit can get a 13 then he can't race anymore. I know he was doing the best he could and he had no control over my reaction to whatever problem he had. How can he race if he has to be responsible for every one else on the track? Anybody can and will have small errors at any time that under unlucky circumstances become collisions. This is unavoidable fact.


If the 13/13 HAS to be applied in EVERY contact situation then it becomes useless as a tool to make the racing environment better and safer. It instead becomes a coin flip in situations like these. How did my getting a 13 for this make anyone safer or promote better racing? How would the other driver getting a 13 have helped?

I think PCA Club Racing should realize that they given their stewards only one way to deal with an infinite variety of on-track incidents. Surely we can do better than this?

 

One way that we can do better is to remove the appeals decision from the hands of the stewards. A trio of experienced, respected racers could be assigned in advance at each race to review any appealed incedents that weekend. That way, the cars, video, corner workers and drivers are all there, and the situation is fresh in everyone's mind. I think that is better than sending it back to the PCA stewards who may be reluctant to override a collegue's decision, even if the appeal has some merit.

BTW, I was there and feel that the decision was wrong. Also, the testimony of the cup car driver was less than honest.

One last thing that I noticed. The cup car definately starts to rotate on corner exit (check the angle of the right front wheel) which necessitates the initial throttle-check to stop that rotation. Then when it grabbed again, something happend and he slowed suddenly. YMMV.

 

Well said. PCA has been hesitant to give the Steward any sort of subjective decision ability. If we have the very best people at the Steward position, why cant they be entrusted with subjective decision ability. Is it because they dont merit it? Of course they do. I would gladly abide by any of the existing stewards decisions. It is a tough, thankless job. They are asked to make everything into a black and white decision. In racing clearly that is not always possible. The precedent has been set on a couple of areas in this incident, if You slow abruptly or miss a shift and an incident occurs behind You, it is Your fault. I have seen 13/s given over the past couple of years for slowing over aggressively, missing a shift and checking up. Another precedent that has been set is that we all must give each other racing room. You have an obligation to behave as You have behaved in the past so that Your movements can be somewhat predictable and anticipated by the overtaking car. If You deviate from that then You must have a good reason and if not You stand the risk of causing an incident and collecting a 13. Things are happening faster and faster these days, cars are quicker, fields are larger...more and more gray area each lap. There was a very debated incident where someone missed a shift, the car behind him hit him, the missed a shift car got the 13. That was the precedent incident that began to gray "the overtaking car has the responsibility to make a clean pass" dictum. I really wish Our stewards were allowed to be subjective in the gray. If I am spending 10-15k to run an event, have an incident(costing another 10-15k, if I am lucky) and am not allowed to continue to run or try to run if its a "gray area incident" then I will be very soured on the whole thing. That is alot different however if I am a bonehead, creating dangerous situations and need to leave for the safety of the event, others, and self. We all know the difference, we see it at each event. I worked very hard to come up with a couple of options for PCA with PMNA. Making PCA more of a racing option for several classes while keeping gentlemans racing in several others seems to be a logical direction. I believe that is why You see several other viable options growing each year. PCA is my favorite place to race, I hope it remains so and hope to see it grow and mature where needed.

With all that being said, I will go mirror to mirror with You Chris all day every day, You are one of the finest drivers I know out there. I will continue as I always have, to completely trust You with my life. There are several others of which I cant say the same...

 

Good thoughts Larry. Still wish they were allowed subjective rulings also...do we always need a 13? I sure wish the single car 13 would be reevaluated also.

I also think every car should be mandated white...

 

Wow, nasty hit. Sorry to see it--you were really driving well. I saw nothing in advance that would should have warned you something was about to happen. It looks as if he had a tiny bobble exiting the corner just before the hit that may have altered his intended trajectory somewhat (he was pointed slightly left, whereas you & the CUp ahead of him were pointed straight ahead). But that doesn't suggest he would suddenly lose velocity right in front of you.

I am pretty astounded you were given a 13 for that. Wow.

 

I concur. Racing incident. It's the risk you take.

I don't agree that the amount of damager that occurs should determine a 13/13. The decisions made should warrant the 13/13. Outcomes post contact are post contact and shouldn't be part of the decision process.


It sucks that the guy's car was bent up badly but it was his misshift that caused it. That being said I Don't think a misshift should warrant a 13/13 either. This was a racing incident that happens when people race.

 

True, but there are no racing incedents in PCA racing.

 

Glen makes some excellent points. I have never thought of different rules for different classes but it could make sense. When I run my vintage 73 911 in stock class I am around some people who are driving their street cars. My car is registered too, and I drove it yesterday as we have a thaw and clean roads. Many of these people (including me up to a few years ago) REALLY don't want ANY damage to their cars nor can afford to fix it.

When driving a cup car or a purpose built racecar, it's not quite the same, everyone out there should be a more serious racer and not worried about a tap causing a scuff on their car. A dented fender on a real race car is part of the territory (and the repair cost can be relatively "in the noise" compared to the other costs of the event). Like Glen said, when you spend that much to get to an event you don't want to go home due to an "incident" like Chris had.

The way the rules are now it IS just luck sometimes- you "can't race anymore" unless you accept the fact that you can get a 13 any time. You need to shake it off and hope you don't get another one within 13 months. Good luck! (one more race for me to be probation-free again).

 

I have always heard that having a video helps to resolve fault. This collision definetely had a cause and the video shows it clearly . I have had a couple 13/13's and when I was honest with myself I can say that I was deserving and could have been more aware and learned from it. Basically rookie mistakes.
We and the stewards should be on the same page and this appears an instance that blame had to be placed because it's pca protocol. How will our racing improve if good drivers are penalized.
It appears the current review process isn't working .
In my incident when a passing car hit me Alan Friedman said " that's racing"

 

Couple of things:
Firstly has anyone heard the other drivers account? Has he admitted any error or mechanical fault that caused him to slow? I'm guessing not.
Secondly I slowed the video down and thought I saw a blip of his brake light? May have been a reflection or optical illusion but can anyone else see that? You were having to do the 'over & under' as they were able to get more power down so you had to try and outfox them under brakes/cornering. I wonder if he even saw you swing to the other side?
Don't know your rules but it sounds like a traffic accident. In other words the cops or insurance companies have to blame someone and it's always the guy behind. Seems a bit similar here. Maybe they're being over officious. May I assume that there is no insurance at this level of racing?