dsmith

This seems to really be the key. Finding the line that allows you to not brake on the banking and gives you enough straight, flat braking zone to not go off the left, or straight over the right side curb in T14.

Anyone know how fast you can go into T15 CW? I know it's around 140mph, but I've only driven a car that could do 135, it was stock on street tires, so I expect the limit to be much higher.

I'm glad VR pointed out T1/T2. You guys were hugging the inside like crazy. I even saw some braking and lifting. I think, in those cars, you should be able to full throttle from T3-T15, almost making it to the grass in T1. Watch the marbles, though. Maybe a throttle breather for correction, but certainly use the whole track.

Man, that looked like fun. Wish I still had a track car. I think I'll get to drive my friend's 996 track car this month at the Ferrari event at TWS.
David

TR6

I tried to not brake at all on the banking in one lap and ended up in the grass (drove straight off, no drama). For my car, it was just a simple matter of needing more braking room (and a more talented driver). I was somewhere around 138-140 at the end of the straight. After that I gave up on the idea of not braking at all on the banking...

mpaton

Dave, you and I talked about this after I rode with Jeff, changed his line in T11/T10, and then he came to tell me that your suggested line in 11/10 was different from mine. I'd thought we were in agreement after we talked, but I don't see any need for a second apex on T10.

IMO, you should take T11 as if it were a 45 degree sweeping right hander, maintaining as much speed from the T13/T11 straight as you can. After apexing T11 at the right hand curb, then accelerate on a straight line that joins the right hand curb apex of T11 to the curbing on the left side of T10. On that straight line, shortly before reaching the T10 curbing on the left, brake hard, (and downshift in most cars).

I think we agree so far.

As the car passes the T10 left curbing on that straight line, T11 ends and T10 begins. The T10 turnin point and apex are the same point. T10 is then a 135 degree left hander that is much slower than T11, and from the turnin point you accelerate while close to the left hand curb until the understeer takes you away from it (usually about 50 degrees of rotation) and then let the car drift out to the right side of the track, close to the right side curbing that marks the 1.8 track turnoff and its cones.

Once you leave the left side curbing of T10 (the combined turnin and apex) you never go back to it.

So I don't see why you describe a second apex on T10.

Jeff, in the video I did see you using a T11/T10 line that was a combination of what I suggested and what you were doing before. As I said then I don't believe that's fastest, but then I did suggest that as a Yellow or White group driver you evaluate what the instructors are telling you and see what works best for you.

I was going to comment on the video that you seemed to be following the lines of the cars in front of you, and that this is a temptation that instructors see very often. However I also realize that one of the points of a lead/follow session with drivers you trust is to try their lines as well as try your own. And of course I have no idea which you were trying at any given time. However in general when doing this, remember what you believe your line to be, and drive it while others are driving theirs. There is a real tendency I've seen in many drivers to forget the lines they were using to catch up to another driver, and to start using the line of the car in front. Even in the higher run groups.

Of course I realize that when you're at a DE and have a killer line advantage you don't want to let people see it till the actual race, so probably that's why you weren't exactly on line, right?

Michael
another TWS advanced instructor

ervtx

Is it anything like this?

http://www.vimeo.com/687050

4 laps; so you can evaluate 4 attempts...

Boze_man and I both got the same suggestion during earlier rides with the Team 2 AI on board, and we both liked it. The lower "angle of attack" made it harder to judge distance, and at first it felt like we would run out of track to get the braking done, but we always had plenty of room to spare even though all of the braking took place after the transition.

ervtx

And thanks mpaton for showing me that lower T15 line. It took a while for me to hear you, but glad you finally got thru!

Jeff, this is the same observation I shared with you on Saturday. I'm working on that video so you can see how the whole train just followed the fist guy thru (on a bad line). mpaton saw me do the same thing on Sunday!

mpaton

As the Team 2 AI for last weekend the video shows the line I was suggesting fairly well (and also the T11/T10 line). I did suggest that people use the high line in T15 until they have a very clear mental visual picture of how the track is laid out (as many people hadn't driven the track CW before). After they were clear on that I suggest the low line, mostly because it gives a long long length of straight line braking on the flat, not crossing the transition or turning while braking. I don't claim it to be faster, just a bit safer and lots more relaxing, and no braking required on the banking (unless perhaps you're topping 145, depends on your brakes). You can make it faster I suspect if you use all that straight flat track to late brake, but that seems of doubtful value in a DE.
I certainly enjoyed it from the passenger seat a lot more than viewing people's attempts to trail brake at 120.

What happened on the video at the 4 minute mark. It looks like the car stopped, or did you just park on the outside of T11 to let people catch up?

Michael

ervtx

Do you recall our conversation about my fuel level while still at the grid? I didn't think I would last the entire session, and it was on my mind the entire time.

Turns out I just missed the upshift prior to T12 (thanks for that tip too), but for a split second I thought the engine had cut out on me. By the time I realized what had happened, I had become a slow moving vehicle and just needed to get out of the way! Yes, it worked towards our intent to swap out on lead-follow, but I've got to call it what it is: driver error.

And the fuel warning light came on during the cool down lap!

TR6

Kind of like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-2eYSd5DWw
I was into the ABS the whole way once I finally started braking down on the flat. The pedal was firm, but it just felt like the car wasn't slowing. Discretion being the better part of valor, I opted not to try to turn in for 15...

ervtx

Greg, NOW I remember seeing you out of the corner of my eye a few moments later. You were moving so slow out there in NASCAR land, you looked like you had lost your GPS or something! Obviously, you found your way back home...

I think if you had cut sharper towards the inside of the turn, you would have had several more feet of track for braking.

TR6

Yeah, that's what I thought too after I watched the video. I wasn't angled enough in towards 15. Falls firmly into the category of 'seemed like a good idea at the time...'

ps. Another buddy of mine that watched it told me it looked like I thought I was heading into T1 instead of T15.

Veloce Raptor

Russell, yes, that is what I meant!

Michael, after we spoke, I continued experimenting. I am now of the belief that it is faster to apex 10 a second time, for two reasons:

1) allows you to straighten the wheel more & sooner, allowing more acceleration from 10 to 9
2) gives you more room for understeer w/o having to lift to avoid the trakc out curbing or the cones

I tried it both ways. With an identical entry speed (in RPMs), my exit speed (in RPMs) was at least 500 RPM higher apexing 10 a second time & lengthening the 10-9 straight.

So we are going to have to disagree on this one.

ervtx

Jeff, I sure would appreciate seeing the video you took in the last Saturday session (where you on my a$$ for a few laps).

As promised, here's mine from the 3rd Saturday session. (Warning, this is HD video; may not work well on slow connections. A download option is available, which is good for running at full resolution from your own computer)

Feb '08 LSR DE - Saturday - Yellow run group featuring Buckley Racing

Do I get a Buckley shirt now? Ha! I really enjoyed watching you guys from behind; looked like you were having lots of fun. Hope you can find areas for improvement from this view.

Regarding the 4th Saturday session, I know that immediately afterwards you were OK with not getting a point-by, and that after looking at your video that night, you were thinking of having second thoughts. But think about it from the perspective of both sessions...

In my video, traffic is the only thing that got between us after I let you by. And since you guys tailgated each other, you received group point-by's. If I had chosen to stick my nose up your exhaust, I might have gotten stranded behind slower cars less often and stayed with your pack. Yet I always clawed back (and not only on the straights). One could argue that if I had simply held my initial position, stuck around to earn the point-by I forfeited by letting you guys pass as a group, you would have finished behind me - with traffic in-between us.

So my thinking in the 4th session - as there were times when you were close (when I was slowed by traffic) and times when you were not - was

"I can keep up - whether in front of you or in back of you. This time, I'm in front. Luck of the draw. Let's go". Your video would certainly help me know if that thinking was grounded.

I know from looking in my mirrors that you got the "let's go" part; hopefully you're cool with the rest. Either way, it was great fun and I enjoyed the competitive spirit and appreciated your analysis when it was over. Good luck in March!

mpaton

Well, it's not like that's never happened before. :-)

However it seems like we still agree on T11. I'm assuming between your 1st and second apices in T10, you're rotating the car with more than just the steering. Where exactly are you making your second apex?

You might well be getting more exit speed while spending more time in the corner going slower getting this extra rotation, so your assumption is correct, I'm not convinced yet. But don't give up trying. You may be correct, we just need segment times from data logging.

Michael

Veloce Raptor

You're right--only data will tell for sure, rather than my anecdotal observations. My second apex is relatively early, right after turn in. Then I straighten & track all the way out to the cones under WOT. And yes, some oversteer there aids my rotation...

mglobe

Uh, one little thing that did bug me. One of your guys was all over my *** on the warm-up lap. Its double yellow, so you can't pass anyway. Once we go green, I don't mind someone on my ***, I'll either lose you, or point you by (the more likely outcome). No harm, no foul, just etiquette, but you might ask everyone to back off a little.