Veloce Raptor

IMO, that is REALLY dumb.

Mark in Baltimore

Dave,

Not trying to thread-highjack but why? Are they really that bad? How much worse would they be than a custom cage? Is there any proof that they are worse?

I have a fancy-schmancy Mitch Piper cage and chose it because I had the money and wanted a great-fitting cage with custom door bars. However, if I were really on a budget, I would put in a Safety Device or OG cage.

ltc

sorry for the somewhat

The physics would tend for me to disagree with the first part of your statement, but I agree with the latter part of your statement (regarding design overkill....sorry, no pun intended)

Displacement must be controlled (keep your head on your shoulders, in the same relative position to the rest of you)....priority # 1...check.

Next would be deceleration as we get to the end of the displacement. Assuming both devices would "keep your head on your shoulder" and keep moments to an acceptable anatomical limit, then next up on the menu would be intracranial soft tissue damage..in other words, keeping your brain from splatting against the forward wall of your skull, resulting in contusion to hemmoraging.

I view it in this manner (when I was discussing H&N restraints with my son when I bolted the Leatt brace to his neck the first time he wore it in karting)

2 men jump off a bridge, each with 10' of "tether".
One tether is a chain (zero stretch)
One tether is a bungee cord (LOTS of stretch, but limited to 10' when fully stretched).
Attachment to the person is the same for both (you pick how, except not around the neck please)
They both jiump.

Who comes home for dinner.

Veloce Raptor

I understand the budgetary aspects of it. However, I would much rather be in a fully (and properly) welded well-made cage when the **** hits the fan than in a "one size fits all" deal held in by a mere 4 easily sheared off bolts. JMHO.

Mark in Baltimore

Yeah, me, too. But I'm not convinced that the "cage-in-a-box" is a significantly inferior design. I suppose it depends on your definition of "significantly inferior".

Veloce Raptor

You have to ask yourself why bolt in cages are not allowed in any form of professional motorsports, as well as the majority of amateur motorsports? Heck, even the BMW club wised up & disallowed bolt in cages a couple of years ago.

Mark in Baltimore

Great question, but I'd like to see some sort of evidence that the cages are inferior. Professional motorsports where budgets are sky-high notwithstanding, perhaps many of the amateur sanctioning bodies are merely playing follow the leader in order to stave off culpability if a lawsuit were to occur.

Veloce Raptor

If you have a $50 head, get a $50 helmet.

Mark in Baltimore

Market forces have determined that I have a $400 head and a $4,000 body.

38D

Both SCCA and NASA allow bolt in cages.

Circuit Motorsports

Couple of things to stir the pot even more.

Bolt in cages are allowed by the largest group of motorsports. (Circle track/Dirt track)

The issue with Bolt in cages, from my limited knowledge is the mounting points. I've seen a number of weld in, custom cages, that have extremely poor mounting points. I've also seen bolt-in cages with extremely strong and well thought out mounting points.

I could be talked into the opinion that bolt in cage with a dash bar would be safer than a weld in cage without one.

How many times out of 10 would the average weld found in a PCA or BMWCCA cage fail before 4 top grade bolts.

All that being said the cage that will be going into my next tin top will be a custom built weld in.

Veloce Raptor

Only a matter of time before they don't. When the lowly BMW club is ahead of SCCA and PCA on safety, well.....

By the way, SCCA also does not require H&N restraints (IIRC), either, so maybe not the best example...

924RACR

SCCA already tried to F us on H+N restraints, but since we ARE a club, which sometimes does listen to its members (seems to be getting better and better these days, thankfully!) we managed to get them to reconsider - specifically, reconsider a very poorly-thought-out rule change proposal.

Does SCCA still require bolt-in cages in Showroom Stock? They used to be, I think in fact as recently as when I started racing a mere 9 years ago...

As mentioned already, I'd be more concerned about the general design and implementation (in particular, integrity/welds) of most cages out there before I'd worry about how they attach to the body. For that matter, I'd be more interested in coupling the seats and belt attachment points to the cages before I'd worry about the cage-car interface. I don't foresee SCCA addressing any of those items at the amateur levels any time soon...

Professor Helmüt Tester

While I'm open to correction, I don't think that Isaac has ever presented "head-on" sled hit data, although the 38.1 test protocol seems to require it. All the sled hit data you will see published about the Isaac system are for offset sled runs. I've read the assertion that "Well...if the offset hit data fall inside the acceptable window, we can mathematically predict that the head-on hits will too". Well...maybe...and maybe not. That's why, in this world, we test things rather than just rely on suppositions/predictions of performance.

So...next time the subject of the Isaac system comes up, ask "Has the system been tested in head-on hits, and if it has, where is the data ? If it has not, why hasn't it ?".

If you don't show me all the data, I'll think you're hiding something, even if you're actually not.

While I have used a head & neck protection system since 2001, I'm really curious why club racing sanctioning bodies are suddenly mandating them. Is it something demanded by their insurance carriers ? I'm glad that SCCA backed off mandating them, actually.

Matt Marks

Great semi-off topic from the NASA nationals. Scruts impound our class to check for safety compliance. Guy in front of me is running a rented ride - which is nicely equiped with brand new Schroth 6 point "HANS" belts with the 2" inch shoulder belts. He is told that he is not in compliance until he either 1) installs 3" belts, or 2) installs a HANS device as the belts are only homologated when using a HANS.

So, he bought a HANS prior to the next session. Made it an expensive weekend...

That being said - I'm glad the PCA is moving in this direction, and also hope they ban bolt-ins in the future