McLaren's latest Mea Culpa...
12-14-2007, 12:52 AM
#16
Formula One Spin Doctor
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Pete, your story is mixed up , Stepney worked for Ferrari couglan worked for mclaren , stepney knows where all of the skeletons at Ferrari are , maybe a lot on MS , who knows , but soon to be released at a theater near you , it will be R rated , you will not be able to attend , of course unless you get Larry the adult to accompany you .
NOW UPDATE Your facts , ferrari info moved thru Mclaren at all levels , even little baby Jesus had a copy , it is on the lunch menu , on the 08 car , it was not just Alonso and De la rosa,...........
Here yah go
FIA: McLaren planned to use Ferrari data
By Jonathan Noble Thursday, December 13th 2007, 18:50 GMT
McLaren were poised to use systems on their 2008 car that had been inspired by secret Ferrari information given to them by Nigel Stepney, the FIA's technical report on the matter reveals.
Having conducted a detailed examination of the design of McLaren's 2008 car, to see if any Ferrari intellectual property had been used, the FIA report published on Thursday claims that there was evidence of such activity.
Although what the specific parts and systems are have not been revealed, to keep McLaren's own technical secrets confidential, the report is adamant that some elements of the MP4-23 design was scheduled to include technology inspired by confidential Ferrari information.
The report states: "The [redacted - confidential] system appears to have been re-investigated and developed by McLaren as a result of the receipt of confidential Ferrari information.
"Despite senior McLaren management imposing a hiatus on development at the time the (Mike) Coughlan activities were revealed, McLaren now intend to use [redcated - confidential] on the 2008 car."
It added: "The [redacted - confidential] mechanism which McLaren has developed since the 3 May 2007 Coughlan meeting is intended to be used on the 2008 car and appears to have been initiated by the receipt of confidential Ferrari information."
Detailed examination of the report shows that one area where McLaren had appeared to utilise the Ferrari information was in the creation of a new brake balance system.
The report states: "It appears on the basis of these documents that the genesis of the idea to incorporate a [redacted - confidential] on the McLaren 2008 car emanated from the emails exchanged on 12 April 2007 concerning Ferrari's [redacted – confidential] system and the meeting called on 3 May 2007 by Coughlan. We have not been presented with a convincing explanation to displace the impression given by the documents."
The report also states that McLaren were ready to consider the use of CO2 gas in their tyres, as Ferrari do. It is believed 'more likely than not' that the idea came to the team from information given by Nigel Stepney.
The report states: "We believe the general investigation by McLaren of the use of [redcated – confidential] established further dissemination of confident Ferrari information to engineers within McLaren which has influenced their work on the 2007 and 2008 cars."
The FIA document also reveals that engineers within the team were aware of a Ferrari 'mole' passing information to them.
One email exchange between engineers on April 13, 2007 discussing steering angles mentioned an exact figure for the Ferrari wheelbase. A response from a senior McLaren engineer was: "Is the Ferrari wheelbase an accurate figure? Did it come from photos or our mole?"
The response was: "You will find it's to the nearest 'mm'."
The report states: "On a natural reading of this exchange and taking into account the suggested explanations for it, we have concluded that both [Senior McLaren Engineer] and [Senior McLaren Engineer] were aware that confidential Ferrari information was being leaked through a mole and were prepared to use that information for McLaren's benefit in the design of the 2007 and 2008 cars."
The report reveals that McLaren indeed decided to follow Ferrari's example and increase the wheelbase of their car for 2008, although it could not prove whether this was because of the secret Ferrari information or because of information that was readily available and in the public domain.
McLaren have apologised to the FIA for not being aware of just how far the Ferrari information obtained by the team had spread within their organisation, and the report reveals that even a 'Senior McLaren management figure' was aware of what was going on.
It states the unidentified senior McLaren management figure advised the team to abandon work on a secret technical development because of the spy case surrounding the team.
The report states that on August 8, a senior McLaren engineer communicated a decision reached by a senior McLaren management figure to junior staff members that they were to abandon their efforts on the development
"I would not change the [redacted – confidential] direction until we have to, i.e., when we eventually run the [redacted – confidential]. We will obviously ask for this again for Turkey but I'm not hopeful that we will run this until the outstanding FIA agro [sic] is resolved."
McLaren have vowed to cease development work on the parts that could have been inspired by Ferrari knowledge, and the FIA stated on Thursday night that it was now willing to bring the matter to a close.
NOW UPDATE Your facts , ferrari info moved thru Mclaren at all levels , even little baby Jesus had a copy , it is on the lunch menu , on the 08 car , it was not just Alonso and De la rosa,...........
Here yah go
FIA: McLaren planned to use Ferrari data
By Jonathan Noble Thursday, December 13th 2007, 18:50 GMT
McLaren were poised to use systems on their 2008 car that had been inspired by secret Ferrari information given to them by Nigel Stepney, the FIA's technical report on the matter reveals.
Having conducted a detailed examination of the design of McLaren's 2008 car, to see if any Ferrari intellectual property had been used, the FIA report published on Thursday claims that there was evidence of such activity.
Although what the specific parts and systems are have not been revealed, to keep McLaren's own technical secrets confidential, the report is adamant that some elements of the MP4-23 design was scheduled to include technology inspired by confidential Ferrari information.
The report states: "The [redacted - confidential] system appears to have been re-investigated and developed by McLaren as a result of the receipt of confidential Ferrari information.
"Despite senior McLaren management imposing a hiatus on development at the time the (Mike) Coughlan activities were revealed, McLaren now intend to use [redcated - confidential] on the 2008 car."
It added: "The [redacted - confidential] mechanism which McLaren has developed since the 3 May 2007 Coughlan meeting is intended to be used on the 2008 car and appears to have been initiated by the receipt of confidential Ferrari information."
Detailed examination of the report shows that one area where McLaren had appeared to utilise the Ferrari information was in the creation of a new brake balance system.
The report states: "It appears on the basis of these documents that the genesis of the idea to incorporate a [redacted - confidential] on the McLaren 2008 car emanated from the emails exchanged on 12 April 2007 concerning Ferrari's [redacted – confidential] system and the meeting called on 3 May 2007 by Coughlan. We have not been presented with a convincing explanation to displace the impression given by the documents."
The report also states that McLaren were ready to consider the use of CO2 gas in their tyres, as Ferrari do. It is believed 'more likely than not' that the idea came to the team from information given by Nigel Stepney.
The report states: "We believe the general investigation by McLaren of the use of [redcated – confidential] established further dissemination of confident Ferrari information to engineers within McLaren which has influenced their work on the 2007 and 2008 cars."
The FIA document also reveals that engineers within the team were aware of a Ferrari 'mole' passing information to them.
One email exchange between engineers on April 13, 2007 discussing steering angles mentioned an exact figure for the Ferrari wheelbase. A response from a senior McLaren engineer was: "Is the Ferrari wheelbase an accurate figure? Did it come from photos or our mole?"
The response was: "You will find it's to the nearest 'mm'."
The report states: "On a natural reading of this exchange and taking into account the suggested explanations for it, we have concluded that both [Senior McLaren Engineer] and [Senior McLaren Engineer] were aware that confidential Ferrari information was being leaked through a mole and were prepared to use that information for McLaren's benefit in the design of the 2007 and 2008 cars."
The report reveals that McLaren indeed decided to follow Ferrari's example and increase the wheelbase of their car for 2008, although it could not prove whether this was because of the secret Ferrari information or because of information that was readily available and in the public domain.
McLaren have apologised to the FIA for not being aware of just how far the Ferrari information obtained by the team had spread within their organisation, and the report reveals that even a 'Senior McLaren management figure' was aware of what was going on.
It states the unidentified senior McLaren management figure advised the team to abandon work on a secret technical development because of the spy case surrounding the team.
The report states that on August 8, a senior McLaren engineer communicated a decision reached by a senior McLaren management figure to junior staff members that they were to abandon their efforts on the development
"I would not change the [redacted – confidential] direction until we have to, i.e., when we eventually run the [redacted – confidential]. We will obviously ask for this again for Turkey but I'm not hopeful that we will run this until the outstanding FIA agro [sic] is resolved."
McLaren have vowed to cease development work on the parts that could have been inspired by Ferrari knowledge, and the FIA stated on Thursday night that it was now willing to bring the matter to a close.
12-14-2007, 04:01 AM
#17
Nordschleife Master
Big freakin' deal. A team got busted for trying to cheat.
I bet my left nut that Ferrari has cheated wayyyy more and just never been caught.
Not to mention the other teams cheating that just suck so bad that no one even cared.
If anything I'm outraged at how BAD Stepney was at being low key about the whole ordeal. You'd think he would have been way more secretive and "deep throat" about it. You want a conspiracy theory? How about this: Ferrari GAVE Stephney permission (and a fat under-the-table paycheque) to divulge the information in an attempt to ENTRAP McLaren, and they took the bait! How's that for a conspiracy theory!!!
I bet my left nut that Ferrari has cheated wayyyy more and just never been caught.
Not to mention the other teams cheating that just suck so bad that no one even cared.
If anything I'm outraged at how BAD Stepney was at being low key about the whole ordeal. You'd think he would have been way more secretive and "deep throat" about it. You want a conspiracy theory? How about this: Ferrari GAVE Stephney permission (and a fat under-the-table paycheque) to divulge the information in an attempt to ENTRAP McLaren, and they took the bait! How's that for a conspiracy theory!!!
12-14-2007, 09:05 AM
#18
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I'm amazed that anyone, no matter how staunch a Mac/Dennis supporter, would try to condone their behavior. Let me ask you this, if YOU were racing and found out that the guy who just beat you cheated would you say, "Ah, who cares. Everyone cheats."?
Mac/Dennis got caught with their pants down and should be punished. Maybe everyone cheats up and down the paddock. That doens't excuse it and when someone gets caught, they should be severely punished. That is the only way to make teams think twice before cheating. There has to be repricussions.
Mac/Dennis got caught with their pants down and should be punished. Maybe everyone cheats up and down the paddock. That doens't excuse it and when someone gets caught, they should be severely punished. That is the only way to make teams think twice before cheating. There has to be repricussions.
12-14-2007, 09:07 AM
#19
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Also, I think it is very funny that anyone would try to imply Mac is cheating by using CO2 in their tires. Everyone knows they got the information about using that gas in their tires from Costco who now fills all their new tires with the stuff!
12-14-2007, 09:18 AM
#20
King of Cool
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Pete, your story is mixed up , Stepney worked for Ferrari couglan worked for mclaren , stepney knows where all of the skeletons at Ferrari are , maybe a lot on MS , who knows , but soon to be released at a theater near you , it will be R rated , you will not be able to attend , of course unless you get Larry the adult to accompany you .
NOW UPDATE Your facts , ferrari info moved thru Mclaren at all levels , even little baby Jesus had a copy , it is on the lunch menu , on the 08 car , it was not just Alonso and De la rosa,...........
Here yah go
FIA: McLaren planned to use Ferrari data
By Jonathan Noble Thursday, December 13th 2007, 18:50 GMT
McLaren were poised to use systems ...
NOW UPDATE Your facts , ferrari info moved thru Mclaren at all levels , even little baby Jesus had a copy , it is on the lunch menu , on the 08 car , it was not just Alonso and De la rosa,...........
Here yah go
FIA: McLaren planned to use Ferrari data
By Jonathan Noble Thursday, December 13th 2007, 18:50 GMT
McLaren were poised to use systems ...
After reading what Wayne posted, I can't se how anyone could defent McLaren's actions.
I hope everything is cleared before Heikki puts his McLaren uniform on!
12-14-2007, 10:34 AM
#23
Rennlist Member
Do we really think that if an engineer leaves one race team and goes to another, he forgets what his original team filled the tires with, or how he designed the shift program?
In every race series, people with "proprietary" knowledge jump from team to team, and take their knowledge with them. But, that is okay.
I head an organization with 300 employees, and I only know what filters up from the ranks to the managers, and from the managers to senior admin, and from senior admin to me. That is a fraction of what 300 people do in 8 hours, as there are 2400 hours for something to have occurred every day.
I oversee 50 doctors. It is only when a suit is filed or an audit is noticed that some activities come to light. We audit internally, but there can be 6 months between audits of individual divisions. Why? Because we see 1000 patients a day. When there is that volume of activity, and big Mac's is at least that big, nobody can know everything. You depend on people, and people let you down sometimes. That's human.
Do we think Ferrari hasn't done similar things or made efforts to do so? How exactly are magical technical violations (like the mass damper) "discovered"? Is it ever one person sharing secret information with another?
I think it's time to move on. What we have seen has been standard operating procedure. Maybe that can change going forward, but the past is not repairable. Plus, I want to see LH succeed this year. AS
In every race series, people with "proprietary" knowledge jump from team to team, and take their knowledge with them. But, that is okay.
I head an organization with 300 employees, and I only know what filters up from the ranks to the managers, and from the managers to senior admin, and from senior admin to me. That is a fraction of what 300 people do in 8 hours, as there are 2400 hours for something to have occurred every day.
I oversee 50 doctors. It is only when a suit is filed or an audit is noticed that some activities come to light. We audit internally, but there can be 6 months between audits of individual divisions. Why? Because we see 1000 patients a day. When there is that volume of activity, and big Mac's is at least that big, nobody can know everything. You depend on people, and people let you down sometimes. That's human.
Do we think Ferrari hasn't done similar things or made efforts to do so? How exactly are magical technical violations (like the mass damper) "discovered"? Is it ever one person sharing secret information with another?
I think it's time to move on. What we have seen has been standard operating procedure. Maybe that can change going forward, but the past is not repairable. Plus, I want to see LH succeed this year. AS
12-14-2007, 11:22 AM
#25
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Yes Wayne, I mixed up the names/spelling, but the story was correct. It appears Mr. Integrity has at most a year left, perhaps less. Sad really when you consider he worked his way up the ladder to head one of the racing worlds most respected organizations
Am I reading more than I should into this, but Whitmarsh handled the introduction of Heikki to the media instead of Dennis? www.f1racing.net
Am I reading more than I should into this, but Whitmarsh handled the introduction of Heikki to the media instead of Dennis? www.f1racing.net
12-14-2007, 11:29 AM
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Do we really think that if an engineer leaves one race team and goes to another, he forgets what his original team filled the tires with, or how he designed the shift program?
In every race series, people with "proprietary" knowledge jump from team to team, and take their knowledge with them. But, that is okay.
I head an organization with 300 employees, and I only know what filters up from the ranks to the managers, and from the managers to senior admin, and from senior admin to me. That is a fraction of what 300 people do in 8 hours, as there are 2400 hours for something to have occurred every day.
I oversee 50 doctors. It is only when a suit is filed or an audit is noticed that some activities come to light. We audit internally, but there can be 6 months between audits of individual divisions. Why? Because we see 1000 patients a day. When there is that volume of activity, and big Mac's is at least that big, nobody can know everything. You depend on people, and people let you down sometimes. That's human.
Do we think Ferrari hasn't done similar things or made efforts to do so? How exactly are magical technical violations (like the mass damper) "discovered"? Is it ever one person sharing secret information with another?
I think it's time to move on. What we have seen has been standard operating procedure. Maybe that can change going forward, but the past is not repairable. Plus, I want to see LH succeed this year. AS
In every race series, people with "proprietary" knowledge jump from team to team, and take their knowledge with them. But, that is okay.
I head an organization with 300 employees, and I only know what filters up from the ranks to the managers, and from the managers to senior admin, and from senior admin to me. That is a fraction of what 300 people do in 8 hours, as there are 2400 hours for something to have occurred every day.
I oversee 50 doctors. It is only when a suit is filed or an audit is noticed that some activities come to light. We audit internally, but there can be 6 months between audits of individual divisions. Why? Because we see 1000 patients a day. When there is that volume of activity, and big Mac's is at least that big, nobody can know everything. You depend on people, and people let you down sometimes. That's human.
Do we think Ferrari hasn't done similar things or made efforts to do so? How exactly are magical technical violations (like the mass damper) "discovered"? Is it ever one person sharing secret information with another?
I think it's time to move on. What we have seen has been standard operating procedure. Maybe that can change going forward, but the past is not repairable. Plus, I want to see LH succeed this year. AS
Also, there is no way anyone believes that Ron Dennis had no idea that senior members of his staff had all that Ferrari info.
Plus, I want to see LH flounder this year!
12-14-2007, 11:35 AM
#27
Formula One Spin Doctor
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Based on comments by his past drivers and events witnessed over the years , RD would make a great " wise guy" as discussed previously , i do believe he will announce his retirement next year. What happened at mclaren this year was a catastrophic failure at the management level , Mclaren had everything in place to become the next super team , the embarrassment to it's sponsors, partners and F1 fans where immense .
12-14-2007, 11:44 AM
#28
Formula One Spin Doctor
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McLaren plan no launch for new car
By Jonathan Noble Friday, December 14th 2007, 15:33 GMT
McLaren have no plans to hold a launch for their 2008 car, the team announced on Friday.
The team kicked off their 2007 campaign with a spectacular unveiling in Valencia, but on the back of a difficult season marred by the spying affair, the plans for 2008 will be much more low-key.
The MP4-23 will instead just be rolled out for a private test at Jerez in the middle of January.
A statement issued by the team, who confirmed that Heikki Kovalainen will join Lewis Hamilton in 2008, said: "The Vodafone McLaren Mercedes MP4-23 is scheduled to commence its on-track testing programme at an exclusive test at the Jerez circuit in Spain during the second week of January 2008.
"There are currently no plans for a launch presentation but the team will provide the media with photographs and further details about the car when it runs."
McLaren have no plans to hold a launch for their 2008 car, the team announced on Friday.
The team kicked off their 2007 campaign with a spectacular unveiling in Valencia, but on the back of a difficult season marred by the spying affair, the plans for 2008 will be much more low-key.
The MP4-23 will instead just be rolled out for a private test at Jerez in the middle of January.
A statement issued by the team, who confirmed that Heikki Kovalainen will join Lewis Hamilton in 2008, said: "The Vodafone McLaren Mercedes MP4-23 is scheduled to commence its on-track testing programme at an exclusive test at the Jerez circuit in Spain during the second week of January 2008.
"There are currently no plans for a launch presentation but the team will provide the media with photographs and further details about the car when it runs."
12-14-2007, 11:45 AM
#29
King of Cool
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12-14-2007, 11:48 AM
#30
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The other difference in comparing AS doctor supervision and McLaren, is that doctor's provide a service, McLaren is in the business of producing a product, in this case a race car. If a high level doctor leaves, he cannot just forget everything he's learned and it is presummed he/she will share what they have learned and bring it to their new position.
However, if those same doctors were in the research business and not providing a service, the research they were working on would be fully documented on computers, backed up on disk, etc. Alex, do you believe it would be right for a research doctor in the field of cancer or anything else to take from his company disks, documents, research theory, etc. to his new employer without being culpable?
Let's compare Ross Brawn going to Honda. Don't you think he's going to bring his knowledge and experience he learned from Ferrari to Honda? But you wouldn't expect for him to bring the current Ferrari Dossier for reference.
Suppose you and I start an new cancer drug research firm. Wouldn't we want to hire experienced researchers to head our departments. If those researchers said they had the blueprints from their former employer and it could save us millions in start up costs for a baseline on what has already been learned so that it doesn't have to be duplicated and perhaps new methods we had not thought of, would this be right? Tempting, but not ethical, right?
However, if those same doctors were in the research business and not providing a service, the research they were working on would be fully documented on computers, backed up on disk, etc. Alex, do you believe it would be right for a research doctor in the field of cancer or anything else to take from his company disks, documents, research theory, etc. to his new employer without being culpable?
Let's compare Ross Brawn going to Honda. Don't you think he's going to bring his knowledge and experience he learned from Ferrari to Honda? But you wouldn't expect for him to bring the current Ferrari Dossier for reference.
Suppose you and I start an new cancer drug research firm. Wouldn't we want to hire experienced researchers to head our departments. If those researchers said they had the blueprints from their former employer and it could save us millions in start up costs for a baseline on what has already been learned so that it doesn't have to be duplicated and perhaps new methods we had not thought of, would this be right? Tempting, but not ethical, right?