You lost me at "Teaching".

I dont see the problem. There is a guy learning the car and the track and he is a faster car, if he wasnt, and you mopped him up in the turns, make a safe pass and get around him and show him your lines. However, if you cant, there is nothing wrong with a guy running WOT as much as he can, not lifting for anyone. And, as was said, if you dont like it, pull in the pits and grab some space. From his perpective, there is nothing worse than giving a point by, only to be stacked up by a "quick in the turns" car on the beautiful long straights of a track like VIR. Had he known who you were, had more experience, had radio communication with you, understood perfectly the dynamics of road racing, etc etc, then, yes, this would be a little frustrating. But in a DE??? I dont see the issue, or anything to be learned by this.

However, i do think that this experience of the faster car ahead of the quicker car is good for both. It teaches them how to deal with a common situation in racing. by just pulling over and pointing someone by, you are just lapping. (which is still good) but, by haning on someones bumper, or being ahead of someone and driving your mirrors a bit, this will teach an even more valuable lesson about being on the track, how do deal with traffic and drive at the same time. I can remember hours and hours of this kind of competition, as it is, when i started DE'ing. we had a very agressive groupe of cars, but all of us seemed to develope patience and car control through these kinds of situations. Lets face it, if you dont have these types of experiences and just " point buy the guy that fills your mirrors" then when you start racing, you will be even more unprepared and dangerous to yourself and all around you. if you want open track lapping days where no one is around, choose an event that has 10 cars to a run group. If you want to learn how to deal with traffic while driving near the edge, these DE's can be a great education and experience. I remember hating when someone in a faster car pointed me by when i was just starting to nip at their bumper. DE can be training for driving competition or car control. Both can be done together. If you want to pass and cant get around, just lift yourself for a few seconds and continue on. Or, if you are quite a bit faster and experienced, set up a pass and make it stick. Good for both drivers in my opinion.


Mk

 

I respectfully disagree. This is at a road course. The turns are where the beauty lies. If you want to go fast in a straight line, you should be at a drag strip or land speed racing venue. I believe on a road course, it is far worse to be held up in the corners by a faster car, then held up on the straights by a slower car. In fact it is sometimes to the faster car/slower driver's advantage to get "stuck" behind a slower car/faster driver. The slower driver can watch what the faster driver is doing in the turns that makes them faster and learn by example.

-Scott

 

John,

One of the most significant things that I see in your original post is that you took the time to go talk to the guy. How often have you heard someone in the paddock, or at dinner that night, or on this forum complaining about someone's behavior on the track? The problem is, they never talked to the person whom they feel, rightly or wrongly, was driving badly or dangerously. I personally have done just what you did. For me, it is a mistake to do it right after the run; I might not show your restraint. What I need to do is take my car back and park it, cool off, drink a water, collect my thoughts, then go find the other driver and talk to them.

I think what you are doing is commendable. I am a proponent of having instructors in each run group to keep an eye on things. Kinda like having people packing heat on an airline, but that's a completely different tirade.

 

No I didn't;

That's just your pre-disposition to dislike anything I say creeping through. By the way, I think in the spirit of disclosure, you need to change your Rennlist Job to "Documenter of MY Inneptitude." I rarely see you post unless it is about me. Surely I can't be the only innept person here, in your eyes?

Maybe relative to him? Yes, I'm Schumacher. One would certainly hope I were a substantially more talented driver, given our relative positions, eh? You are pre-disposed to dislike what I say, but it was not about me. It was about an issue, and a solution.

When you finally got around to the issue instead of critiquing my writing style, it appears like we actually agree.

Are you feeling OK, Cooley?

 

I'm with Scott;

WAAAAY with Scott. Mark, I don't see how you can say what you said. He should not need to know anything but that he is holding me up, and the rules state to lift and let pass. End of discussion. That is the way it should work. That's the way I handle it myself. DE is not a game for individuals. It is a group effort. You are making it a selfish solo experience, like racing. It is not (or should not) and never will (hopefully) be. I just don't get your thinking here, unless I factor in that you are a racer. THEN it makes sense.

YOU are one of the people not getting the level of infringement here, it seems. IF he had allowed the pass on the first lap, it is entirely possible that I would have LAPPED HIM. We are not talking a mild descrepancy in speed, as you seem to be thinking. It was HUGE. In that context, I cannot and do not see how your comments, or his driving, make any sense at all.

Regarding your ideas of race training, DE is a communal experience. Everyone has to follow the rules of fairness or it breaks down. The rules for racing, and its level of "fairness" are quite different, and not a part of this discussion. IF you have drivers of equal experience and the decide to run a BLOCKING drill to add to their skills, that is quite another matter. Each knows what is going on.

Let's not even get into whether this kind of race practice should even go on at a DE. As you yourself said, perhaps you better get to a lapping day if you want to do this type of driving. DE is NOT really the place for that. Not PCA DE, anyway.

I do indeed agree that your ideas present an excellent way to gain racing skill, and those skills are invaluable in a racing context. But as I'm sure you well know, DE is not racing, or racing practice. Not in PCA, anyway.

 

Thanks Don;

You seem to have fully grasped what I was... um, driving at. I am not willing to call anyone a ******** until I know they meant it. Then, I will say it to their face, like a man.

This fellow needed the benefit of the doubt, I gave it to him, and I am very glad I did. As pissed as I was, my restraint was equally high. I'm actually rather proud of myself for that, to be immodest. Then again, it would be more precise to say I was stupefyingly incredulous, not simply enraged.

 

I hear what you are saying, but the Mandatory drivers meeting in the morning is 90% certain to mention the need for cooperation for passing that that high HP cars may need to lift. Not following any advice as a student of DE is completely against the spirit and philosophy of a DE.

I was not at this particular event, but would bet $$$ that this was discussed at the driver meeting. Also taught in classrooms so double whammy.

If you get a fellow that misses one peice of driver education instruction, it makes you wonder what else he may be missing or will miss in the future.

Hmmm. I never remember anything mentiond about red flags - that must mean I am HOT! Cool!

 

Redline..

You have to understand that I was pointing out why your story sounded more like whining and less like a story with a point. Yes you did talk about how you passed faster cars right off the bat and called the drivers not as good as you were. What was the point of that. We all know you can get around the track and it did very little to add to the story.

I went on to tell you that if you had delivered the message better it would have been better received.

You also need to get over the fact that you think I am attacking you. I was actually supporting you overall, just telling you that you did a poor job of conveying the point and why that was. I'm not predisposed to like or not like what you say. As I said, you did something that was rare in the situation and should be commended for not only doing it, but passing on the experience.

 

The problem is that every single person at the drivers/instructors meeting thinks "I'm good, so he's not talking about me." Seriously, everyone at DE thinking they are above average. It really would be nice to hook up the loop one time so all the DEers could see if they really are "above the crease".

 

Colin, you and I both know that many DE drivers would be quite depressed if they knew what kind of times their cars should be running. Those that race have a better understanding of where they really are.

 

Well, i have to lean back your way on this one after thinking about it. I think the main thing here is that you had a meeting about it, and part of the DE goal is to teach folks how to listen and follow instructions, even though it might be going against their ego. Lets face it, from day one, 90% of all DE'ers are racing (even though they hear the same old pitch by the officials that this is not a race, we all want to drive our cars home, look at that idiot that crashed, etc etc) However, when they understand the point you made about letting a car go by that is filling your mirrors, as you might learn something, everyone wins. I get your point here too! I think where you lost this individual on the track was with the hand signals. Who knows. In the end, i also agree that you should cool off, or if you are like me, its all just for fun in the DE or time trial events, so just go over and make a joke out of it, or have a real light discussion. However, in the end, if you are so much faster as to lap him, it shouldnt make any difference how much hp he has, just slip by him on one of the turns (unless there is a "into the turns" passing rule)

I do think that the training at the track, in traffic, with folks in your mirrors, is good education. regardless if they are pointing toward , racing, car control, just being a co-op member of a group on the track! Most of the problems I see is folks not knowing how to deal with traffic. learning how to survive in this environment, is good for everyone. Part of this education certainly can be knowing when to point someone by. But, there is nothing wrong with fighting them off for a few turns .

mk

 

Thanks for saying this Gary. Amen....+1

I run in yellow and/or blue, and frankly, if you can't figure out the situation described here when you're in blue, you really belong in green. Not understanding that a 944NA behind you can't pass you on a straight is awfully basic.

You instructors out there have the responsability to run a tight ship and not promote student or sign them off too early. This fella slipped through the cracks.

Mike

 

Yes, it's hard to hide from the time sheets!

 

Yikes!

 

Indeed, Mike;

You and Gary have hit the same nail I was hammering on. Can you imagine this guy moving up into higher groups and never learning this lesson? This is EXACTLY the type of thing that fouls up DE for everyone. I admit that I went pretty far in pushing this guy - hoping the light would come on by itself. As I mentioned, I was more incredulous than angry. Can you imagine him stiffling someone with a nasty hair trigger temper?

I would be willing to bet that he displayed the same type of driving as a student. His instructors did not teach him the value, the necessity, of driving with a sense of community spirit. In that respect at least, both he and the sport were done a disservice.