I was reading the current thread about run times in different run groups at different tracks and it got me to thinking about the ALMS races I've been watching this year and recent threads about fast drivers having to put up with slower cars in the top run groups.

First off I AM NOT REFERRING TO DRIVERS NOT GIVING TIMELY POINT BY'S.
For the sake of this thread I'm going to assume that all drivers are aware of what's going on behind and in front of them and act accordingly.

Watching the in car camera of the recent ALMS race with the Audi and Spyder battling it out and how they dealt with GT2 cars really impressed me. It seems to me that in a DE (or race) environment the mark of a good driver would be in his/her ability to deal with slower (or faster) cars than theirs. Both the Audi and Spyder had to slow down at innoppertune times when a pass was not possible and be able to get on the gas as soon as possible afterwards. Conversely, the GT2 drivers had to occassionally take a corner from his faster brothers. This to me is one of the signs of a good driver in a fast car and perhaps something we can always be trying to improve.

Comments?

 

+1

FYI: Upon recent discussion with the zone 2 rep about the early season VIR event, ( my comment was to go to a 4 run session per day format to allow more insurance against Black flags, car issues ect. so as not to potentialy loose the better part of the day.)
he informed me the most fequent complaint from drivers in upper run groups is that they are getting pressed from behind by faster drivers/cars. He is considering changing the event to allow only street cars. I think if you are aware of your enironment, a GT3 RSR with a pro driver behind the wheel (which was at the event) is not a problem.

Humerous point from a track chair during a WGI event.

Upper level student comes to him and says I don't think I am comfortable passing on the outside of the caroussal after the bus stop. Track chair's response........Well then your in the wrong run group!

 

Most of the cars at the Zone 2 event were probably not driven to the event and I doubt (hope) that proposal would never fly. Just because he drives his car to the event doesn't mean the rest of us do ...or should.

 

I have a low end data point. So far 4+ years in Black with 90 hp and no issues with M2M or having a car run out of room and mow the lawn behind me. Had a red 911 flashing hi lights at me as we were going through Oak Tree and I gave the pass with a bird " WTF am I gonna do in the middle of the turn with the corner worker looking right at us? Besides you just showed up". later found out that he was guy I knew well just messing with me while droving anothers car. Heads up some skill and knowing the other drovers goes a long way imo.

Its not the cars it is the drivers.

 

I'm usually 10+ sec/lap faster than the next fastest car (and 20 when you factor in the SM's) I'm often on track with in the Radical and have next to zero problems. (I tend not to force the issue.) HOWEVER, in something like the 993RS wannabe, where I'm maybe 5-7 secs faster than the median, I have all kinds of trouble. Usually from anything rear engined with a turbocharger. Go figure.

Thunderhill used as the example here, with 1:50-1:55 for the Radical, 2:05 for the 993.

 

I like driving with faster cars with faster drivers...its actually alot of fun for me because they, even if only a second or two quicker, can usually get by me with little problem and then once they are by, I LOVE following some of them for a bit (obv nothing too extreme) but I love driving behind older cup cars.

 

That's a knee-jerk response if I ever heard one. So a "street" 68 912 on the track with a "street" 02 996TT is ok but a not a suspension/safety modified 911 SC? I don't believe there IS a way to break down groups by speed unless all you let run is one or two groups and break each down. Even then there is great disparity in pace. HVR's Cup and Saucers does it very well but it's all up to the people out there to make it work. I had Cup cars come up on me like I had my E-Brake dragging in my SC but I saw them and gave passes WELL before it became an issue for either of us and no momentum was ever lost by them or me..

 

It goes both ways... as an Intermediate group drover of an NA 944, I run with all sorts of different cars, and frankly, all sorts of skill levels. With one of my clubs there are only 3 DE groups and one racer test n tune group. So you get many different levels of driver out there. I'm probably in the middle. But in my little VW, I always have someone that can just outpower me. These folks I give very early point bys to and let them know I see them and to just get on with the pass. But there are many people in high power cars that only go fast on the straights and are loath to point by the lowly 944 when I am glued to their bumper through every turn. Those guys that need the humility of the blue flag to get them to let me go by.

I found my car to be excellent training in staying aware, as the speed differentials can get up there quickly. It makes me faster both ways... trying to pass the grinches, and trying to stick with the high hp beasts.

Edit: See sig for a valid demo of said phenomenon. I always have to pit out to get away from a train.

 

Having started out in SCCA racing over 35 years ago, with multiple classes racing together (usually A, B, and C Production), and a few times a 5.0 Ltr Class and an under 2.0 Ltr class on track at the same time (me in C Production or U-2), I find the DE complaining to be quite entertaining, and very revealing about the individuals involved!

 

Well, yeah, sort of........title said in part "upper run groups", right? So we've got our DE hat on and wait for the point-by. Glad to see everyone so aware.

(I remember quite fondly duking it out with a GT-1 Camaro in my first SCCA licensing school at Holtville circa 1983. I had a showroom stock RX-7 that was running on some season-old A001R's (remember those?). So that's racing, and you never know who you're going to match up against.)

 

I drove with guys that are up to 20 sec/lap faster than I am, on tracks with a lot of elevation change and you can still see them coming. I've also been on the track with cars that were 10 sec/lap slower. It's just not that hard to co-exist and have everyone maintain their momentum while passing.

 

It's called situational awareness.... should be one of the 1st things taught IMO.

 

Exactly. If you're in a 944 or an old SC at (for example) entering South Bend at VIR, and in your mirrors you can see a cup car just entering the climbing esses, you SHOULD understand that they will be up your *ss coming out of oak tree.

As such, (and I raced a 944 and now race a Focus) you should 1) know that the pass is coming, and 2) that the closing rate on the back straight will be such that if you don't have your arm out the window, you're going to get blown by anyway.

In black/red this is the fault of the slower driver not managing the situation correctly. On the other hand, if you're in the same 944 on a tight twisty track and are attempting to mount a slower cup cars rear bumper like Kid Rock on Pam Anderson, after a few laps of embarrassing the Cup car driver, the cup car needs to realize that he needs to lift for half a lap while the 944 goes on its way. Both drivers will then have the opportunity to complete their session in relative peace (piece? ;-) and maximize their track time.

 

Bingo.

 

Actually - this is getting dangerously close to the old threads of "do racers make better instructors" - just substitute "situational awareness" for "instructor".

(just stirring the pot ;-)