How do you learn slip control?
10-03-2007, 04:44 PM
#16
Herr Unmöglich
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I play a ****load of rFactor on the PC. With no butt dyno you get really good at visually picking up cues and correcting quickly, especially in faster cars like F1. When I get in the 944, it feels like I'm moving in slow motion. I flog the crap out fo the car and when it breaks loose it seems natural now to countersteer.... I don't ever think about it until after I've made the save and move farther along.
Most of my slips are the result of my currently overstiff and twitchy rear suspension - the front has not been adjusted to match yet. That's my job for this winter.
Also I've had 14 years of winter snow driving experience... you really learn to counter steer.
Most of my slips are the result of my currently overstiff and twitchy rear suspension - the front has not been adjusted to match yet. That's my job for this winter.
Also I've had 14 years of winter snow driving experience... you really learn to counter steer.
10-03-2007, 04:46 PM
#17
King of Cool
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While games might help to a some degree, problem with them is you're not feeling the motion of the car and you need that in order to be able to start correcting basically before the slide even starts and that IMIO is the key to succes in this case, the ability to feel the car and react basically before anything happens.
10-03-2007, 05:14 PM
#19
Burning Brakes
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+1 to all the responses.auto-X-, karting and gaming all have benefits, with a real skid pad or skid car being the best.
The better drivers happen to have great personal balance. They sense the minor changes in the car and react accordingly. You can work on your balance with a physio ball, wobble boards or dome ***** (great for your back and nervous system). Ihave heard a lot of the guys talk about plaing ice hockey, skiing, motor cycles ect.
Larry Herman gave a class once discussing the dynamics of the car during the rear walking out.
In short you have to feel it first. Try to stay ahead of the car with your correction. Don't assume the car will hook up. Make the car do what you want it to do. With that said: if the rear walks out it is because of a loss of traction, by backing out of the throttle slightly you will shift weight to the front end regaining some sterring control. Often a quick counter and return to straight position of the steering wheel then reapplying throttle ( to transfer weight back to the rear to balance the car) will get you straight with out creating a tank slapper. The above is done very quickly. Playing one of the driving games using a very fast car will teach you this skill, just ask Lee Keen
, but the above discussed events will provide you the seat of pants feel required.
10-03-2007, 05:19 PM
#20
Three Wheelin'
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Why would you need to shift weight FORWARD if the rear steps out? You already have steering control, you need to shift the weight rearward.
10-03-2007, 05:35 PM
#22
Addict
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Pffff.....
Like Finns know anything about driving sideways!!
I mean... what else do you do in the interminable winters?
If you can set your car up to oversteer (rear bar/pressures cranked, fronts softer, old hard rear tires, etc) , and then can take it out somewhere safe, you will get the hang. Rear drive in the snow or gravel, any karts that slide, ANYTHING that gives you the FEELING to train the MUSCLE MEMORY.
To learn to slip... SLIP! Then Repeat!
Like Finns know anything about driving sideways!!
I mean... what else do you do in the interminable winters?
If you can set your car up to oversteer (rear bar/pressures cranked, fronts softer, old hard rear tires, etc) , and then can take it out somewhere safe, you will get the hang. Rear drive in the snow or gravel, any karts that slide, ANYTHING that gives you the FEELING to train the MUSCLE MEMORY.
To learn to slip... SLIP! Then Repeat!
10-03-2007, 05:36 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by M758
AUTOCROSS ... Where else can you can take 15 corners in 45 seconds at any speed
Autox is fine too, as long as you can stand sitting around for 6 hrs just for 5 minutes of track time...
10-03-2007, 05:40 PM
#24
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GaryR.
Actually, I agree with you. I always heard that DOT's will let loose and you won't hear them, but I hear mine. The only difference I can tell is I'll hear street tires sooner before I brake loose that I hear the DOT's. It's been so long since I've been on the track w/street tires though...
Actually, I agree with you. I always heard that DOT's will let loose and you won't hear them, but I hear mine. The only difference I can tell is I'll hear street tires sooner before I brake loose that I hear the DOT's. It's been so long since I've been on the track w/street tires though...
10-03-2007, 05:43 PM
#25
Lifetime Rennlist Member
The single best thing I have done to improve car control and hand speed (and I have tried a lot of different things) is the Skip Barber Advanced Car Control class. Wet skidpad in a twitchy formula car with tread in the front and bald in the rear. Add very limited steering lock and you will learn to correct and to it with quick hand speed.
As far as I know, they require the basic class before you an take this one (don't confuse it with the street car control class) but with decent experience I think they waive this requirement.
As far as I know, they require the basic class before you an take this one (don't confuse it with the street car control class) but with decent experience I think they waive this requirement.
10-03-2007, 05:44 PM
#26
Drifting
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Yeah, that's something I'm working on too. One of my favorite sayings I've heard is something like "in a 911, mashing down on the throttle may not solve every problem, but it will definitely end the suspense."
10-03-2007, 05:59 PM
#28
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The advantage of autocross is that you're not threatened with being sent home for 2 spins in a day. You don't have to actually enjoy autocrossing, just use it as a car control session. As a Maverick Region instructor, I have checked with previous Autocross CDIs that I could send DE students to autocrosses for the express purpose of learning car control, and they were fine with it.
However I've heard about Speed Zone and it would seem to be a better choice, as you can go more often. You need to develop a finely tuned yaw sensor in your body that tells you what the car is doing. It's relatively easy to detect oversteer, a little harder to counteract it, and quite difficult to get the car to line up again with the direction of travel that you want. Usually the tail returns to straight about 3 times faster than it came out. Detecting that it's coming back well is essential for control and confidence in track driving. I've already asked another Maverick student to visit Speed Zone as often as possible. Sounds like an opportunity for an organized driving school there!
Michael
However I've heard about Speed Zone and it would seem to be a better choice, as you can go more often. You need to develop a finely tuned yaw sensor in your body that tells you what the car is doing. It's relatively easy to detect oversteer, a little harder to counteract it, and quite difficult to get the car to line up again with the direction of travel that you want. Usually the tail returns to straight about 3 times faster than it came out. Detecting that it's coming back well is essential for control and confidence in track driving. I've already asked another Maverick student to visit Speed Zone as often as possible. Sounds like an opportunity for an organized driving school there!
Michael
I'd thought about autocross, but the autocross season is already done for this year in our local club. I'll have to do it in early 2008. Autocross has never appealed much to me because it just looks like a sea of orange cones to me, but if I think of it as a skid pad excercise, autocross makes a whole lot more sense to me.
I'm not aware of any karting leagues in the Dallas area, but I'll check. If anyone knows of any, please let me know. As a side note, I know this sounds cheesy, but I went to a place called Speed Zone that has a go kart slick track and I had a blast sliding the carts around the corners. I felt like I was actually gaining a feel for how to keep the cart pointed in the right direction and I was passing the people that were just drifting around. Something like that but on a faster platform would be great.
Driving on the race track in the rain is a good idea too. I've only had one chance to do that since I started DEing and I didn't push it because the cars that went off were getting stuck up to their axels in the mud. Looking back on it, I wish I had pushed it a little more.
I'm not aware of any karting leagues in the Dallas area, but I'll check. If anyone knows of any, please let me know. As a side note, I know this sounds cheesy, but I went to a place called Speed Zone that has a go kart slick track and I had a blast sliding the carts around the corners. I felt like I was actually gaining a feel for how to keep the cart pointed in the right direction and I was passing the people that were just drifting around. Something like that but on a faster platform would be great.
Driving on the race track in the rain is a good idea too. I've only had one chance to do that since I started DEing and I didn't push it because the cars that went off were getting stuck up to their axels in the mud. Looking back on it, I wish I had pushed it a little more.
10-03-2007, 06:23 PM
#29
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Autocross; 15 corners in 45 seconds......the only problem is that the entire run is only 30 seconds long
Greg, there are other activities that may speed up the learning process, but it all comes down to seat time. There was a karting school and track just north of Denton called Going Faster, but their web site is currently down so I am not sure if they are still around. I took a racing school there a couple of years ago. It was quite intense, after driving a kart being in a track car seems like slow motion. Those little suckers pull 2g's and in some turns I could not even hold my head up. I'll stick to my cushy 3.2 Carrera.
rickdm
Greg, there are other activities that may speed up the learning process, but it all comes down to seat time. There was a karting school and track just north of Denton called Going Faster, but their web site is currently down so I am not sure if they are still around. I took a racing school there a couple of years ago. It was quite intense, after driving a kart being in a track car seems like slow motion. Those little suckers pull 2g's and in some turns I could not even hold my head up. I'll stick to my cushy 3.2 Carrera.
rickdm
10-03-2007, 06:24 PM
#30
Drifting
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Yes. However, I did buy a set of extra wheels with Toyo RA1's and used them at one DE in June, but I went back to streets for the balance of this year. Yeah, it is actually an interesting experience on the slick track in terms of learning to feel the slip and correcting for it. The biggest drawback to Speed Zone is that you stand in line for quite a while only to get a short duration of track time. And its also expensive to keep running over and over. Also, the carts on the slick track don't have the same weight transfer characteristics as a real car, but at least you can feel them slide.