Bolt in roll bar, fire system, seat and harness is what that entails right? The club racing saftey standards need an update worse than DE in my opinion. Being able to club race with a bolt in roll bar is just plain stupid.

 

There's a bit more to it than that. And why do you have an issue with a bolt in bar? I will agree there are some junk bolt in bars out there, but a well constructed one is pretty darn good.

 

I have a problem when just a bolt in roll bar not roll cage is allowed in club racing. That is exceedingly stupid. T-bone means you are dead or going to the hospital. No side impact protection is not something that should be in wheel to wheel.

There really isn't a bit more to it and that is the problem.

Minimums would be

Roll Bar
Fire extiguisher
Removal of things like windows, loose items, etc.
Suit, helmet, gloves, etc.
One piece seat with brace
No need for fuel cell.
Yes there are others but while still important they are miniscule in the grand scheme.

Does anyone honestly think that roll bar is safe for club racing. Especially with the speed the newer cars can attain?

 

I agree;

However. my take would be two fold. If you want to learn to really push a car near its limits, you better be ready to upgrade your safety equipment commensurate with that. If you do not want to mod the car, then you need to drive accordingly.

I don't like to tell people they have to upgrade. I WILL tell them they need to be smart about their driving. We should not pidgeon-hole everyone in a given group into a worst case situation regarding upgrades. However, we should demand that they drive according to their equipment decisions.

I agree again;

When I have participated in this, it is with drivers I know and trust. It is a partnership between 2-3-4 drivers and the rules are simple; give the signal, give the corner. It is no less controlled than passing anywhere else, and it is done in a spirit of utmost cooperation and teamwork.

Beyond the heightened sense of positional awareness gained, and the chance to explore driving offline for real, it is a helluva lot of fun!

 

Hey;

I certainly agree that racing with only a roll bar is foolhardy. However, getting to the point where you do not allow bolt in cages is right in line with the point of this thread. Rules have to stop somehwere. What we need is more information so that people can make informed decisions. If they still choose a cheesy bolt in cage, that is their choice and they can live with it... hopefully.

 

Bolt in cages are not something I've said I was against. There are okay ones out there.

The bolt in roll bar is what scares me. Here is why

What if someone goes sideways in front of me and I don't have the ability to avoid them. I hit them square in teh drivers door. Since they cheaped out and didn't get a cage I just seriously injured/killed them. Now I have to live with their deicsion to cheap out and not buy something that should be a "do not pass go" item

 

I totaly understand the rational, and I'm not a mandatory safety kind of guy. The only issue is that often crashes are the result of mechanical issue, not a driver pushing too hard. A bone stock 997 GT3 driving at 85% is still going, what, 160mph at the end of the back straight at the Glen? Blow a tire there, and I think you're seriously messed up or dead with the stock safety equiptment.


Well, there is still the door & built in door bar there, so there is some protection. I do agree that some of the rules need to be revisted, as 90% of the cars are purpose built track cars and are trailed to the events.

 

And the other 9% are still in cars that have a cage. It's that probably 1% that will run with a roll bar that scares me.

 

Yeah, agreed. NASA Mid-Atlantic's passing anywhere rule (for advanced and instructors only) seems to have worked out quite well. One thing it does really well is to help alleviate traffic. The other far extreme of this rule is the groups who tell you what side you can pass on in what straight. Nonsense in my opinion, why can't I decide which side I'm more comfortable being passed on?

Passing in the turns requires a little more skill, in the advanced run groups the drivers should obviously know where their cars will go through a turn. If not, they probably are a hazard at other points in the track also.

Different clubs have different rules (PCA or not) and it's their right to make the rules. If you want to get involved in changing the rules, then do so, its much more difficult than complaining, however.

 

Darren,
1) I am involved. I've been our region president. I've been the DE director. I've graduated Pete Tremper's instructor's course.

2) I agree that experienced run groups can have less restrictive rules. Most of the acidents are not happening in those groups though. As far as which side to pass on; it is usually in the novice groups. Our philosiphy is that if there are fewer choices, there fewer chances to screw up. THe more miles they get on the track, the less restrictive it becomes.

3) I have done 'pass with signal' events. I beleive it can work fine at certain tracks. The problem at one event I was at was that the locals started to 'pass without signal.' When I was challenged for a corner for the second time, I got off the track. The day ended with 4 broken cars from contact. THey seemed to just shrug it off. They asked me to come back to instruct with their group. I have not been back.

 

Obviously management of adherence to the rules is necessary. If people take pass anywhere with a signal as open passing, then those people are not following the rules, clearly. NASA MA has no tolerance for that, and doing so is very likely to get someone banned.

The truth is that safety is an ambiguous term at best. Safety can't be mandated, only equipment can. When we were all kids we played with Matchbox cars on the back package tray of our father's Ford LTD (substitute an american tank of a sedan) with NO car seat, windows up (maybe cracked) and parents smoking away, etc....Does that mean our parents were negligent? Not really, at the time people didn't really think about it that way. It's the great pendulum swing, and for DE, you can see where it is swinging.

I did an open track day at Hockenheimring in Germany -- hardly anyone had formal track training, open passing (no signals, you get dive-bombed every apex), no helmets, no car requirements, no tech inspection, etc....(some people probably think I'm exaggerating here because this is so difficult to imagine, and impossible in our country!!!) That really taught me a lot about perceived safety levels, it really depends on who you are and what you are doing. In our country, I guess this takes the form of "Who can sue me?", hence the mandate to use OEM belts, I'm no lawyer, but I assume this has less to do with safety and more to do with liability.

It's all just plain silly. PCA requires me to have a roll-bar to use my harnesses, and PCA racers race without a cage. Are we being conservative or not? Please pick, there is no consistency.

I want to go back to Germany, at least there they treat me like an adult and allow me to choose what I think is safe. If I do something that isn't safe, thats on me, its called responsibility.

 

Darren;

Setting passing rules for lower run groups is absolutely a good idea. Having everyone aware of where the pass will happen and on what side reduces the stress level and danger for novice to intermediate drivers, like 968 said. No one gets crossed up and forced into an evasive maneuver because they guessed wrong. It even reduces trains because passes happen quicker through anticipation of getting a signal, and where you will be going once it comes.

It is absolutely the right way to go. I even prefer it for advanced groups as well because -at the least - we all know there are people that probably are not up to that group who are IN that group. Consistency is King!

Of course you are right that a lot of this is liability driven. Europe and even Canada are much more attuned to personal responsibility. Well... there's at least one thing I envy them for.

 

And we still have an F1 race

This is an interesting thread. I would like to comment on one thing though, the idea of banning "race cars" at DE. How is showing up with a 964 cup any different than a GT-3 on Hoosiers? Personally, I think that everyone with more than, oh, say, 230hp should have to short shift at 4K rpm. Strictly for educational purposes you understand

 

Who's fault is this? Can it be put onto anyone's lap?

Why is Driver's Education done on a racetrack? If the purpose is to learn the limits of one's street car is this the optimal place to learn? Why very little classroom instruction on vehicle dynamics? Why is the only time I have ever been on a skid pad been at a BMW event?

DE's have most certainly evolved because of popularity and car performance as has been stated. You offer the opportunity to take a car that has a rated top speed of 192 onto a "racetrack" and do so legally. What would one expect to happen? A select group finds that to be immensely enjoyable and pursues it religiously. Make the car better, make the driver better, etc. Before long you are on R compounds or even slicks.

I belong to VIR club. I personally am glad something like this exists so that someone who enjoys this and wishes to modify their car and have coaching from professionals can do so. It has almost come to the point that such people are not welcomed at DE's anymore for the reasons both you and I mention.

I still don't completely understand why those who do not wish to race are told over and over again that this is where they should run.

I agree 100% with you in regards to the fact that if PCA wishes their DEs to be driver education then restrict cars, restrict modifications, restrict tire choices, do it on a skid pad, do it in a large parking lot with cones to understand passing/braking and sudden lane changes and offer more classroom education.

As it is now it has evolved and good luck reeling it back in.

All meant in kindness and with a hope of understanding.

 

Why is having properly defined passing procedures nonsense?

I have ran at Tremblant with groups that define passing zones and sides strictly and those that don't. It works much better for people with less experience to have well defined procedures.

Just because you personally may think that a particular passing side is comfortable for you doesn't mean you are making the right choice. Do you have over 10 hours at that track or are you there for your first ever day? Your perception of what is safe is often very wrong and far from reality. You should know this if you have driven at track long enough.

If you have a bunch of experienced guys who know the track inside and out (like the instructor group at the local PCA chapter in my case) then I don't see why they shouldn't have discretion in passing.

And you mentioned the euro style track day with dive bombings and other nuttiness. Do you really think it is a good idea to come to such an event?
How long does the Nurburgring manage to stay continuously open on public days? 45 minutes at a time? And then they have to scrape someone off the railing. And here at LCMT we routinely have events that run for 3 days without a single stoppage other than for lunch. And I guarantee you that the advanced group and instructors are not slower than decent 'ringers.

To be treated like an adult at the race track you have to first prove that you can behave like one when there. I fully accepted that when I started and now I have a lot of doors open to me to events with drivers I can trust and have a lot of fun with. I don't want bozos diving into corners next to me and then slamming into me. I had enough of that at the local karting tracks.