First, this is maybe the BEST thread I have read in years. It has stayed professional and enlightening. Thank you all for that!

I am 100% in agreement with John AND Bob.
1) Prevention is always the best solution. Joe Cooley can attest to it from his history. We all can. In fact, the inherent benefit of DEs is to learn your car better in order 1) not get into an accident and 2) if one is iminent, to minimize it. Next, a well run DE is FAR safer than any cage. I know situations will arise even at a 'safe' event but we can't control everything. There was a thread a few weeks ago on the 996 forums where a guy got the back end of his 996 ripped off from a guy who "was trying to follow his line' Yeah, right. The organizers allowed an unsafe situation to get out of hand. It is all of our responsibility while at an event to reduce and eliminate unsafe conditions.
; even if it means, heaven forbid, slowing down.

2) PCA won't 'mandate' rules for reasons already discussed; liability. PCA has some very good attorneys (who happen to be members) advising them on such matters. They also have a very good relationship with their insurers. That reltionship gets tougher as the popularity and speeds increase. Faster cars and more people make actuarials very nervous.

3) Rules that work for one region may not be viable for others. Some of the rules from the east coast regions are very hard to live by in smaller, western regions. However, that doesn't make the event 'less safe.'

Finally, I agree that the PCA is on very slippery ground by making safety recommendations without scientific data. That said, I like the way the Open Road crowd manages safety. It is based on speed. The faster your car can go, the more safety devices required.

Keep this going. Maybe some of the PCA leadership will be reading.

"Pete Tremper! Are you there?"

 

Thanks to ALL for posting!

Airing of the bedding was quite the point, after all. We move much more quickly here than our erstwhile sanctioning bodies do, and informing the masses is always the most effective agent of change.

The premise of my opinions on safety topics is that we do indeed make sure we address the real needs of our members without unduly burdening them with equipment mandates, and then if it is determined that such equipment is a good idea, that it be at most strongly suggested, and then wisely rendered.

I am NOT about telling people what to do. I am about leading them to the right place along the path for them.

 

OK
I'll modify my stance after reading some of the compelling arguements presented here.

1. Mandating safety measures could open PCA and otheres to litigation which no one wants.

2. With the ego's involved it would be damn near impossible to get a concensus on a national level.

3. But as John said above "leading them to the right place along the path for them." should be the goal. We just now have to determine where that "right place" is and I think it will be different for different people.

That being said how about a set of National guidelines in which the "suggestions" could become more stringent as the driver escalates up the ladder or as the car becomes more modified. For instance do you think a car running slicks should be allowed to have it's driver using a 3 point street harness? I hope not...

Just points for consideration.

 

sml - you ask a good question. I will answer with another. Should cars on slicks be allowed at DE at all? What educational benefit do you get from slicks?

PCA finds itself in a tough spot. DE has evolved into something too close to racing. Now they have to try and deal with the increased risks. The problem is obvious as is the solution.

Fifteen years ago, the majority of cars in the paddock of a DE were driven to the event. Now it looks like a race with rigs, trailers and race cars all over the place.

There is also a disturbing trend to improve the car rather than the driver.

We have lost the plot line IMO. DE has turned into a form of racing in the upper run groups. The difference being the passing rules which avoid some car to car contact.

If someone died and made me God of PCA I would have three types of events: Club Racing, Race Practice and DE.

Based on recent DE events, the number of offs, spins and crashes approach those in Club racing. Is this Driver Education?

Note that DE in some regions has turned out pretty much like the Touring Group at Club Races. Why not admit it and put DE back to where it belongs?

DE would be for street legal cars. Race Practice would be modeled on the Touring Group of Club Racing now. The risks would be obvious since the event would be clearly identified with racing with only passing rules to reduce the risk of car to car contact.

Insurance would be simplified since the risks associated with anything called a race or race practice are clear.

Regards,

 

Like what?

I am not advocating the creation of a whole new set of rules that will toss regional DE programs into disarray. What I am advocating is taking existing rules that all regions currently use, and modifying them to create consistency throughout the program.

How passing signals are given, run group designations, allowance of M and/or SA rated helmets...these are issues all regions currently address, but in an inconsistent manner.

I find it odd that people get uptight at the suggestion of mandating a dozen or so DE rules for the sake of consistency, yet PCA racers nationwide live quite nicely with one 32 page PCA Club Race rule document. And maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but I 'think' there is egoism present in Club Racing as well. If you are a racer, would you appreciate a different set of rules for each race you attend? Well...that is what DE participants are subject to every time they attend an out-of-region event.

I will agree that this is a great thread. The exchange of ideas, regardless of agreement, is important and beneficial to a program that we all enjoy and want to see continue.

 

I'll highlight one: Tech inspections. The closest Porsche dealer to Great Falls, MT is Denver, 12 hours away. There is one in Calgary, BC but you can imagine the compications there. There are only two or three independent shops that can even spell Porsche, much less do a decent safety check. We do them at the track. And just for knowledge, we have run injury free, contact free events for close to 15 years with cars ranging from muscle cars to CGT!

 

John,

Please note that next year the PCA harness guidelines become harness rules and each region, including Zone 1, will use them or be subject to having their insurance pulled.

 

What am I missing here?

If the participant installs a 5/6 point driving harness, several additional changes are required to be made in order to create a fully safe occupant restraint SYSTEM. First a seat designed to be used with a harness must be installed. This means that the seat is required to have proper routing for the harness, both through the back and base of the seat for the respective shoulder and anti-sub belts. Secondly, because the addition of the harness means that the occupants are fastened upright in the vehicle, a properly installed roll bar or roll cage must be used to complete the SYSTEM. The use of one without the other makes an unsafe environment and is not a complete system

 

The way I see it a lot of guys selling harness bars next year.

 

Regarding roll bars and cages when harnesses are used:

PCA = "...strongly encouraged..." Found here: http://www.pca.org/drivers_ed/standards.html

Zone 1 = "...must be used..." Taken from John's original post.

 

So someone tell me what allows the difference between these two clubs. (Same track, same year.)

• PCA: Black run group. Near-stock 911. OEM belts. Point-by only on straights. And the straights are the verystraight portions.
• NASA: HPDE3/4. Near-stock 911. OEM belts. Point-by anywhere. Even in the corners.

Seriously...
Is one club carrying more restrictive insurance? Is it because PCA had that fatal track incident last year? Is it because the PCA cars, on average, cost more? Do NASA people have more track time than PCA members?

(No, I'm not saying one club is superior to the other. But I do have a hypothesis…)

 

Capt. Carrera,
You should run with Speed Seekers @ Road America. Every run group is allowed to have passengers.

 

Ummm...

Yur missing the first thing that was said by the Zone!

Suggested Driver/Passenger Safety Restraint Systems:

The following discussion represents the types of driver/passenger restraint systems that are STRONGLY RECOMMENDED for use by all driver education participants.



The timing of my blitz is not coincidental. I want to get to them before they decide this makes perfect sense. It doesn't to me.

 

What educational benefit does anyone get from R compound tires?

I'd live with the answer "none", but if there is "some" in going to R compounds, then I will contend there is also "some" going from R's to slicks.

 

Jupe - I do not disagree. On the other hand it is hard to say no to someone using a street legal tire.

If you peruse these threads we see numbers of people saying they want a track car because they are afraid of damaging their "good" car. Does that attitude make sense for Drivers Ed?

Best,