Noel

Paolo,

Giving into to the peer pressure??? I know you expected this post...after you heard my philosophies over lunch.
That is the thing about DE is that it is a huge arms race. Still streets for me after 7 years...
That said RA-1s are a nice compromise and wear like iron, although I heard they are being discontinued.

Congrates in moving to White. I'm registering for the Aug Lime Rock event today. I'll shoot you an e-mail.

Noel

Phokaioglaukos

Boston, look for me at the RTR DE at WGI and you can use my pyrometer to check your temperatures. Car #28 there.

BostonDMD

Noel I was wondering how you were going to approach my decision.....

Not really peer pressure, I will save my kumhos as rain tires and try the RA1s with a bit more aggressive settings to see how different the car feels. If they are discontinuing them it is even better, (more reason to move up to Hoosiers later on!)
This is just the beginning of my learning progress; let's do lunch again soon..

John I appreciate the conservatism in your response....

Bob, I am hoping it rains in August (preferably the last day of the three day event). I really want you to teach me the rain line......

MrBillfll I will buy the book....

Phokaioglaukos I will definetly take you up on your offer for the pyrometer....

I also want to thank everyone else for contributing in my education....

Martin S.

As we see above, [QUOTE=smlporsche]Boston-
You may want to leave your setup alone for the first event but be prepared for alot of outside tire wear. RA-1's like a lot (>-3 degrees) of camber, especially in the front."

I too have found the above in Red to be true.

I have also found that the RA-1 is not the quickest tire, but it IS the longest lasting tire. Note it has a tread rating of 100, tires such as the Hankook Z 214 and others are 50 and below.

You will see on the Toyo web site @ Toyo Factory Site states the following re. RA-1 tires:
General Proxes RA-1 setup guidelines:

* Operating Temperature: 140°F to 220°F, optimum around 200°F
* Hot Inflation Pressures: High 30s to Low 40s (psi)
* Camber: -2.5° to -5.0°
* Caster: As much positive as possible

And here is some more info off the web which came up after a search "care and feeding of Toyo RA-1 tires:

• TOYO RA-1 tires have proven themselves to be the most consistently performing tire over it's life span, more than any other performance tire in the world.
• TOYO RA-1 tires are unique in the high performance industry in that they do not require a "heat cycle" process to increase the life of the tire.
• However, it is known that TOYO RA-1 tires can become "greasy" during the first 2-3 heat cycles. Once this "break-in" period has passed, the TOYO RA-1 tire will post consistently quick lap times for the remaining life of the tire at each and every event. Therefore, it is recommended that you allow the TOYO RA-1 tires 2, 3, or 4 heat cycles before expecting you best (quickest) lap times.
• PRESSURES: We've found that the TOYO RA-1 tire performs best with a "hot pressure" of between 38-42 lbs. Ideally, you should set the "starting pressure" at approximately 30-32 bls A "starting pressure" is not a "cold pressure", but the pressure that you should set the tires to prior to entering the track for practice or a race. At any time of day or night. Depending upon the driver's style of driving, the type of car, the vehicle's rim width and the tire size, the type of track and/or the chassis settings, these starting pressures can vary by 4-5 lbs lower or higher. In cold weather, it is recommended that the starting pressure be between 27 and 29 lbs with an ending or "hot" pressure of between 35 and 38 lbs. Starting with too LOW a tire pressure will cause the tire to become overheated during the later stages of the event. The result is that the tire will "go off" or begin to loose traction. Extremely low tire pressure (below 20 lbs) could cause sidewall damage.
• TREAD DEPTH: At full tread-depth, the inner two grooves of the TOYO RA-1 tires are 8/32nds of an inch deep, and the outer 2 are 6/32nds of an inch deep. At full tread-depth the TOYO RA-1 is famous for it's performance in the rain. Rain pressures should be about 5 lbs lower than the "dry" starting pressure At full tread-depth the TOYO RA-1 is an awesome performing street tire. Shaving the tire eliminates what is called "tread squirm" and allows the tire to react quicker to driver input and vehicle directional changes.
{In my personal experience (Martin S.) I have found no significant difference on tire wear between a shaved and non-shaved tire. Note, with a shaved tire, your first lap on that tire will be as good as that tire will ever be. There is very little, if any, greasiness experienced with a shaved tire.}
• DIRECTION AND ROTATION: The tire rotation directions indicated on the sidewall of the tire are important for water drainage in rain or wet conditions.o However, the direction of rotation can be changed to suit the driver's needs once the tire has been shaved and/or worn down. Thus, you may use the tire in any direction of rotation when not in rain or wet conditions.
• TIRE DAMAGE: The most common tire damage is when the tire/wheel combination strikes the edge of a pot hole, a curb at the side of the track, or the edge of the pavement. If the driver should drop a wheel over the edge of the track and the track's edge is higher than that of the pavement, the sudden sharp impact could cause the bead area of the tire to become broken. Should this happen, a bubble will appear on the sidewall of the tire. CHANGE THIS TIRE IMMEDIATELY

TR6

Martin, this is great info. Thanks for posting. I just switched to RA-1's at my last DE and decided to run with full tread depth as opposed to shaved. For me, I'm not concerned with having the fastest possible laps right away and am more concerned about longevity (being on a tight budget). And I actually don't mind a little slip and slide as I see that as a necessary part of my continued learning (I have a LONG way to go on that!). In fact, I'm actually thinking about swapping back to my cheapo Yoko ES100 street tires for my next DE to get a little more slip action going since one of my immediate goals is to learn to control the slide, slip, and drift in the turns. That's more important to me right now than faster lap times.

Martin S.

You B welcome....

I have driven RA-1s unshaved...they work just fine but are a little greasy initially...I can live with that, but nowhere as bad as Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on their first laps, cold. I do heat cycle them...run 1 lap on the forts day, take them off and then mount them up again the next day. I do trailer the car and have 2 sets of wheels so this is no problem for me. On a RSA, I nice set of 8" front wheels may allow you to stuff something bigger under the front wheel wells.

Also, RA-1s are a great tire to drive to the track, and, they make a 235 fron t which goes very well with a 275 rear on my 993 car.

We are all on a budget, some are just bigger/small;er than others.

cavlino

Martin are you running 18's or 17's on your 993? We have 17's with 235/40 fronts and 275/40's in the rear. I was thinking of going with 18's and running 225/40 in front and 275/35 in the rear.

Martin S.

I run 17" wheels, 7" front, 9" rear. With RA-1 I run 235/40/17 front, 235/40/17 rear. With 18", if I had the wheels, I would run 245/40/18 front and 275/35/18 rear.

You need to keep the rolling radius, front to rear < 5%, some say 3%; I believe that is too tight. Most mfg. specify the rolling radius of their tires.

If you really want to play with front to rear rolling radius comparisons, send me an e-mail to mfschacht@gmail.com and I'll send you an EXCEL spread sheet that allows to to calculate the rolling radius of any tire with three inputs: 1. distance across the tread (245mm), 2., aspect ratio the %age of the sidewall compared to the tread width and 3., the size of the wheel, such as 17".

cavlino

Martin, thank you for the very informative information.

smlporsche

Good idea.

You could also use this site to see what works for you...

http://www.1010tires.com/TireSizeCalculator.asp

RonCT

I think all of this information is somewhat car dependent and that instead of taking specific advice from the group, take the general advice and talk to the set-up guy. Farnbacher set my car up knowing my goals and objectives and the equipment I'm using -- street and DE car, leave in some understeer for safety valve, running 19s and PS2s street / DE for extreme cold / heavy rain, otherwise running 18" RA1s for DEs. If you are after the last possible second as a club racer, the alignment settings are going to be very different than if this is your first experience with R-comps (and even then, things are different between R-comps such as RA1s vs. Hoosiers).

Shaved vs. not -- if looking for a tire for every purpose (hey, it's starting to rain -- no problem if unshaved RA1s, but if shaved, then switch). Whether full-depth impacts things depends on the speeds you are experiencing and whether you have the pressures dialed in correctly. For example, my son (Yellow and very quick in this car) had no problem with the car with unshaved RA1s at the speeds he was going. My sessions pushed the tires and therefore temperatures ==> pressures much higher. Once the RA1s were more than a couple of lbs over 40, they suddenly broke loose. Fairly exciting flat out at the top of the Esses

I agree with the idea of having the tires and suspension set at the same time. I don't see it as changing 2 things because in my limited experience with such changes I feel they work together.

My car is heavy and different from yours, but FBL set my front camber to about -2 and the rear about -1.8 if I remember correctly. That still gives me some understeer, which is a nice safety valve because I'm not chasing that last second to prepare for a club race. Our 1st day out at Watkins Glen with the RA1s put a total 8 hours on the tires in 2 days. No apparent uneven wear with -2. The tread blocks are very cupped, the drive home sure was noisy.

In the end, cold of 28 PSI x3 and 26.5 PSI driver's rear turned into 40 PSI hot on a 90 degree day. I haven't bothered with a Pyrometer and some that I know that purchased them have put them away. We've been finding adequate pressure and working on other aspects. Again, I think if I were club racing, I'd be trying every trick in the book to fully optimize, but I'm just out enjoying DEs...

bobt993

waiting to see what I am getting into.................

RedlineMan

Indeed;

Since I assumed it was Savenor's car, I knew it had all the goodies. Since you were happy with Boston's driving, I knew he was driving well. However, he is probably just a tad below Ron at this point... I would further assume.

Camber compensates for body roll, and a stiff car does not. Therefore it generally requires less camber to create the proper contact patch and keep the tire healthy and wearing well. Only a highly advanced driver in a stiff car "needs" -3. Someone driving below the need for that much is merely creating rubber snards.

I've been running RA1s for 5-6 years (15-25 days per). With a proper setup, that has stunningly only meant I'm on my third set...and the first set I bought used and still have one left, uncorded! My biggest "problem" is inside RF drag wear. For that reason I run differential camber on the front. -2.7LF, -2.4RF. It helps.

I put the 2 of my remaining 6-year-old-bought-used RA1s on the rear of my car for the 2nd run at Mid O this year, after scrubbing my brandie new set in the first session (the fronts were the uncorded two from my 3-year-old set). One of the oldies was just starting to cord on the inside. No biggie. I put it on the left rear because most turns are right handers and it would drag least there. I did the 2nd two days at Mid O that way, plus 3 days at the Glen, and just finished 3 at Calabogie.

I have but one of my beloved 6-year-old-bought-used RA1s left uncorded. Oh... the LR is only through the first cap and cord ply, but I think I'll retire the old boy. I hate having to pump it up between sessions.

All this by way of saying my PHD in R-Tire Geriatrics is well earned. Your results may vary.

Martin S.

Redline Man and Ron CT; great posts and very informative.

I run -3 in front and -2.5 in the rear. I get very even tire wear with this set up....my car has NOT been lightened...in fact I still have a stock passenger seat.

I have fond that the RA-1 tires wear well....they have the highest tread wear rating at 100, with the other DOT race tires at 50 and below.

Shaved tires work for me, when I can find them. Once shaved and mounted, those babies will work strong on their first lap.

Having a shop like FLR is an incredible plus, real pros.

BostonDMD

You will have "fun" either way.......