Why is "the line" so important in DE?
#61
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Qwickrick
Every PCA region should have all their instructors teach the same basic line, with same turn in, apex and track out points so that newbies don't get confused when they get a different instructor. And we all know why late apexing is preferred over early apexing in a DE experience.
#62
Still plays with cars.
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Originally Posted by LVDell
Problem with that is that there is no oine size fits all line. Different cars require different lines. While the apex doesn't move, the line getting to it and out of it does.
Once the driver has mastered basic skills then some fine tuning is in order. We all recognize the need to alter turn-in points as the driver gets faster - earlier turn-in needed to account for the greater tire slip angle under increased load- the most obvious change I think.
Best,
#63
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
Dell, if I am not mistaken, I *think* we are talking about teaching "the line" to novices. As far as I am concerned, at the novice level, there is one line, period. That avoids a beginner getting confused by being taught different lines by different insructors in the same region.
Once the driver has mastered basic skills then some fine tuning is in order. We all recognize the need to alter turn-in points as the driver gets faster - earlier turn-in needed to account for the greater tire slip angle under increased load- the most obvious change I think.
Best,
Once the driver has mastered basic skills then some fine tuning is in order. We all recognize the need to alter turn-in points as the driver gets faster - earlier turn-in needed to account for the greater tire slip angle under increased load- the most obvious change I think.
Best,
#64
Mr. Excitement
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Originally Posted by LVDell
Problem with that is that there is no oine size fits all line. Different cars require different lines. While the apex doesn't move, the line getting to it and out of it does.
The line is part of the physics of driving just as the ABCs are part of reading. A student leaving the track after day one has only started to learn the ABCs of driving. There has to be a foundation for learning so the student can relate what is happening on track to what is being said by the instructor. "Why" does not have to be charts, graphs, slip angles, traction circles and the like. It should have the basic information of what is happening to the car as it goes around the track.
Reading the recommendations posted here has reaffirmed to me that the PCA region I primarily instruct for has a strong program. we require a HPDC or previous AX or other track experience prior to DE. Our HPDCs have classroom, skid pad and solid on track instruction. At the DEs we have classroom for the Green, Blue and often times White students.
Last edited by kurt M; 06-07-2007 at 09:52 AM. Reason: My spaelling is pour.
#66
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Originally Posted by JC in NY
The racing line is one of the most critical things we teach in DE, it is among the first priorities as an instructor. Yet it also can cause an otherwise good first-time DE driver to become tense and intimidated on the track because it is a new concept. Also, it is often taught poorly.
For a guy who just wants to take his car on the racetrack and flex its muscles and never aspire to competiton, what is the purpose of stressing the line? There is no line on the street. Yet there are still good skills amd high performacne driving techniquies to be taught.
Should teaching the line be left for later sessions, lower than the priority of car control and technique? After instructing for many years, I am starting to think so.
For a guy who just wants to take his car on the racetrack and flex its muscles and never aspire to competiton, what is the purpose of stressing the line? There is no line on the street. Yet there are still good skills amd high performacne driving techniquies to be taught.
Should teaching the line be left for later sessions, lower than the priority of car control and technique? After instructing for many years, I am starting to think so.
#67
Race Car
Originally Posted by BobbyC
Well said!
Originally Posted by RangerGress
Newbies need to do some reading and some unhurried thinking on their own.
Telling people to leave their egos at home AFTER they arrive at the track may be too late. It is those egos that would lead to inadequate pre-track prepration (howework, reading). Anyone that thinks that they are "all that" certainly doesn't need to do the reading that was intended for those drivers that lack talent.
I must be something of an A-wipe to suggest that homework and study be part of an activity that is supposed to be fun?
#68
Mr. Excitement
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Originally Posted by LVDell
kurt...see my post above yours.
#69
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by kurt M
Dell, see paragraph #2 in my post above the one above you posted as I was typing. Or something like that
#70
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Originally Posted by James-man
...how about pre-track reading assignments, lesson plans, homework.... too much like school?
I also very much wish our local PCA chapter offered skidpad schools. I've done a bunch of DE days, but have never had the chance to do any skid pad work. I think there is much for me to learn about CPR (correct, pause, recovery) and other things like that. It would be ideal to be in a safe environment where I could push the car past its limit and learn how to recover (or choose when not to try to recover and just put both feet in).
#71
Everybody goes to DEs for different reasons. The key to making DEs work for everyone is recognizing this fact, and giving people flexibility to enjoy themselves so long as their enjoyment does not interfere with the enjoyment of others.
Things like homework and reading about driving should be totally optional. I really like the idea of making it availble to all, and suggesting that it might help to prepare before hand, but I don't think we should make that sound like it is mandatory (this coming from a guy who would eat that stuff up).
Things like homework and reading about driving should be totally optional. I really like the idea of making it availble to all, and suggesting that it might help to prepare before hand, but I don't think we should make that sound like it is mandatory (this coming from a guy who would eat that stuff up).
#72
Race Director
Good responses. Let me alter my response slightly. I still don't like the idea of a "DE" line. I can buy a novice line vs an advanced line (to accommodate advanced techniques). That certainly makes sense to me, but not "DE" vs "racing."
#74
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Geo
Good responses. Let me alter my response slightly. I still don't like the idea of a "DE" line. I can buy a novice line vs an advanced line (to accommodate advanced techniques). That certainly makes sense to me, but not "DE" vs "racing."
#75
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by TD in DC
Everybody goes to DEs for different reasons. The key to making DEs work for everyone is recognizing this fact, and giving people flexibility to enjoy themselves so long as their enjoyment does not interfere with the enjoyment of others..
Originally Posted by TD in DC
Things like homework and reading about driving should be totally optional. I really like the idea of making it availble to all, and suggesting that it might help to prepare before hand, but I don't think we should make that sound like it is mandatory (this coming from a guy who would eat that stuff up).
Too much reading before hand (I think) can be really dangerous. Well that is, if you understand and remember it at the track.