LVDell

Problem with that is that there is no oine size fits all line. Different cars require different lines. While the apex doesn't move, the line getting to it and out of it does.

Bob Rouleau

Dell, if I am not mistaken, I *think* we are talking about teaching "the line" to novices. As far as I am concerned, at the novice level, there is one line, period. That avoids a beginner getting confused by being taught different lines by different insructors in the same region.

Once the driver has mastered basic skills then some fine tuning is in order. We all recognize the need to alter turn-in points as the driver gets faster - earlier turn-in needed to account for the greater tire slip angle under increased load- the most obvious change I think.

Best,

LVDell

Ah, totally lost focus of what we were actually talking about. I thought this thread had morphed into something more that the rudimentary instruction we started with. I defer back to my original post of teaching the "DE line" from eariler in this thread.

kurt M

I think at the entry level the basic line is close enough to the same for all but the most unusual cars. Teach a standard basic line and the physics or reasons for why it is as it is as you drive. Keep it simple and clean to start and add to it and ajust as the student advances. Most people can adapt to later adjustments. As part of the post or pre run meeting there is little that could be confusing in telling a student “OK, you are now carrying better speed into the corner and you inputs are more accurate so let’s adjust XXX a little. This is what I would like to see you do the next time out...”

The line is part of the physics of driving just as the ABCs are part of reading. A student leaving the track after day one has only started to learn the ABCs of driving. There has to be a foundation for learning so the student can relate what is happening on track to what is being said by the instructor. "Why" does not have to be charts, graphs, slip angles, traction circles and the like. It should have the basic information of what is happening to the car as it goes around the track.

Reading the recommendations posted here has reaffirmed to me that the PCA region I primarily instruct for has a strong program. we require a HPDC or previous AX or other track experience prior to DE. Our HPDCs have classroom, skid pad and solid on track instruction. At the DEs we have classroom for the Green, Blue and often times White students.

LVDell

kurt...see my post above yours.

John Brown

Completely understand your point. And, if you were the only car on the track then this would be fine. But one of the MOST confusing things for a student is the other cars on different lines! So, while I too, as mentioned by others above, will relax the standards depending on the students situation; I still keep the student on some semblance of 'the line'. Regardless of a single students goals, it's owed to the others around them.

James-man

I'm sure that it has all been said before.

Yes! We have pre-track inspection, how about pre-track reading assignments, lesson plans, homework.... too much like school?

Telling people to leave their egos at home AFTER they arrive at the track may be too late. It is those egos that would lead to inadequate pre-track prepration (howework, reading). Anyone that thinks that they are "all that" certainly doesn't need to do the reading that was intended for those drivers that lack talent.

I must be something of an A-wipe to suggest that homework and study be part of an activity that is supposed to be fun?

kurt M

Dell, see paragraph #2 in my post above the one above you posted as I was typing. Or something like that

LVDell

gotta love asynchronous discussion

TR6

I like this idea. As I said earlier in a post, I wish I had read at least the basic chapters of something like 'Going Faster' before day one of my first DE. It would have given me the context to understand WHY the line is important even before I started learning the line of the track. Or devote more classroom time for Green students to covering this on the morning of Day One.

I also very much wish our local PCA chapter offered skidpad schools. I've done a bunch of DE days, but have never had the chance to do any skid pad work. I think there is much for me to learn about CPR (correct, pause, recovery) and other things like that. It would be ideal to be in a safe environment where I could push the car past its limit and learn how to recover (or choose when not to try to recover and just put both feet in).

TD in DC

Everybody goes to DEs for different reasons. The key to making DEs work for everyone is recognizing this fact, and giving people flexibility to enjoy themselves so long as their enjoyment does not interfere with the enjoyment of others.

Things like homework and reading about driving should be totally optional. I really like the idea of making it availble to all, and suggesting that it might help to prepare before hand, but I don't think we should make that sound like it is mandatory (this coming from a guy who would eat that stuff up).

Geo

Good responses. Let me alter my response slightly. I still don't like the idea of a "DE" line. I can buy a novice line vs an advanced line (to accommodate advanced techniques). That certainly makes sense to me, but not "DE" vs "racing."

paradisenb

Autocross!

bobt993

George, sorry, but there is a DE and racing line. DE assumes and by rules alone, no passing in the corners. It allows us to teach turn-in, braking, apex, track-out at a DE level. Knowing when your early, late, hot on entry is part of the teaching to the beginner drovers. Racing assumes alot more tactics, defending, momentum etc and overall ***** out car balance. There are alot of DE drivers that have advanced skills, but race situation definitely requires a higher level of ...................everything.

VaSteve

I only go so I can brag at the office on Monday about going fast. Surprisingly some people are still impressed by this.



Too much reading before hand (I think) can be really dangerous. Well that is, if you understand and remember it at the track.