Why is "the line" so important in DE?
06-06-2007, 01:24 PM
#31
Race Director
My $0.42 on this subject:
- All this performance driving stuff is NOT digital -- it is all analog, even the line. Some lines are good for certain corners and certain cars. One may have to alter his line under certain conditions (rain, weight change, tire wear...etc). And there are times (even in DE), when a different line is necessary. I always tell my student that the line I'm teaching is one that works for me. After he or she gets that line down, if they want to experiment with different lines, I welcome them to do that, as long as they have a solid understanding of the line I taught them, and why they want to try a different line.
- What is the purpose of the line? Quite simply - it is to "straighten out" the turn as much as possible, and, 99% of the time, to maximize exit speed. So when I teach the line, the most important aspect for a new driver to understand is that he or she needs to use the WHOLE TRACK. Thus, for me, when I teach, a priority is given for a driver to get TIGHT on an apex and get all the way to the outside edge of the track on track out. As a driver picks up speed, the turn in/apex/track out points may need to be adjusted. Once the two concepts (use the whole track / maximize exit speed) are understood, a driver will be able to apply those concepts to whatever line or corner they are taking. That, IMHO, is the key to the line. And while at first it sounds like "point to point driving," once the student understands the purpose of using the whole track, he or she will be able to take the turn as a whole, rather than from point to point.
- I always try to teach the line I drive, especially if I plan on taking a student out with me. Doing the same thing that I'm teaching a student helps verify for them what is being taught!
- While I don't race (and I don't play a club racer on TV), I try to teach a line somewhat from a racing perspective. For example: the left hander at Lime Rock -- all too often an extra wide approach is taught there. Why? I'm not sure. But in a racing situation, doing that turn with a wide approach will allow a competitor to take the inside line and take the lead through that turn. Even if the student isn't going to get into club racing, I think it is better to teach a line that makes sense from a racing perspective, as long as that line or technique can be safely taught and implemented in a DE environment. (Same thing applies to T1 at Summit Point -- many DE'ers will turn a little to the outside of the track on approach -- that will allow a competitor to duck under you. I don't teach that technqiue)
- Like others posted, I too drive "my line" on the streets. There's a neat set of on/off ramps to and from work that I really enjoy. There's a set of off-ramps in Franklin Lakes, NJ that I take every day. TWO sweeping turns -- both seem to work best as double apexes.
- Finally, if I may quote Sunday Racer - regarding when to apex: "Late apex as early as possible."
-Z-man.
- All this performance driving stuff is NOT digital -- it is all analog, even the line. Some lines are good for certain corners and certain cars. One may have to alter his line under certain conditions (rain, weight change, tire wear...etc). And there are times (even in DE), when a different line is necessary. I always tell my student that the line I'm teaching is one that works for me. After he or she gets that line down, if they want to experiment with different lines, I welcome them to do that, as long as they have a solid understanding of the line I taught them, and why they want to try a different line.
- What is the purpose of the line? Quite simply - it is to "straighten out" the turn as much as possible, and, 99% of the time, to maximize exit speed. So when I teach the line, the most important aspect for a new driver to understand is that he or she needs to use the WHOLE TRACK. Thus, for me, when I teach, a priority is given for a driver to get TIGHT on an apex and get all the way to the outside edge of the track on track out. As a driver picks up speed, the turn in/apex/track out points may need to be adjusted. Once the two concepts (use the whole track / maximize exit speed) are understood, a driver will be able to apply those concepts to whatever line or corner they are taking. That, IMHO, is the key to the line. And while at first it sounds like "point to point driving," once the student understands the purpose of using the whole track, he or she will be able to take the turn as a whole, rather than from point to point.
- I always try to teach the line I drive, especially if I plan on taking a student out with me. Doing the same thing that I'm teaching a student helps verify for them what is being taught!
- While I don't race (and I don't play a club racer on TV), I try to teach a line somewhat from a racing perspective. For example: the left hander at Lime Rock -- all too often an extra wide approach is taught there. Why? I'm not sure. But in a racing situation, doing that turn with a wide approach will allow a competitor to take the inside line and take the lead through that turn. Even if the student isn't going to get into club racing, I think it is better to teach a line that makes sense from a racing perspective, as long as that line or technique can be safely taught and implemented in a DE environment. (Same thing applies to T1 at Summit Point -- many DE'ers will turn a little to the outside of the track on approach -- that will allow a competitor to duck under you. I don't teach that technqiue)
- Like others posted, I too drive "my line" on the streets. There's a neat set of on/off ramps to and from work that I really enjoy. There's a set of off-ramps in Franklin Lakes, NJ that I take every day. TWO sweeping turns -- both seem to work best as double apexes.
- Finally, if I may quote Sunday Racer - regarding when to apex: "Late apex as early as possible."
-Z-man.
06-06-2007, 01:26 PM
#32
Race Director
Originally Posted by TR6
One additional comment I'll make as a student (not an instructor) is that I wish my very first instructor/DE had done more in terms of explaining WHY the line is important.
1) No time... I don't have that much time and explaining theory takes time.
2) Many students don't want theory. I like it, but many students eye will glaze over.
3) I expect the theory to be coverd in the classroom time. I expect the classroom time to cover theory and higher level topics and it is my job to focus one on one with the student at a more detailed level.
I have explained theory of the line to students on occasion, but it has been driven by the student more than being part of my normal teaching.
06-06-2007, 01:29 PM
#33
Still plays with cars.
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VaSteve - what were you focused on such that the line would be overload?
FWIW - I teach the line and smooth inputs first. More emphasis on the line and as it comes together more emphasis on proper inputs. This is done at a safe speed. Note from Lap 1, session 1 I teach the "vision" technique which leads to very early adoption of the correct line. If gear changes hampers the process, we use third gear all around. This is not common mind you but on occasion it helps focus the driver on what is important.
Once we have the line and decently smooth inputs we can go faster. Continued emphasis on correct inputs and added emphasis on weight transfer ...
FWIW - I teach the line and smooth inputs first. More emphasis on the line and as it comes together more emphasis on proper inputs. This is done at a safe speed. Note from Lap 1, session 1 I teach the "vision" technique which leads to very early adoption of the correct line. If gear changes hampers the process, we use third gear all around. This is not common mind you but on occasion it helps focus the driver on what is important.
Once we have the line and decently smooth inputs we can go faster. Continued emphasis on correct inputs and added emphasis on weight transfer ...
06-06-2007, 01:50 PM
#34
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For my students, the first order of business once in the car, is to work hard on ocular or vision driving techniques first and foremost. The student is repeatedly reminded to lift their eyes to "see" well ahead of where they are so that the breaking zones, turn-in points, apexes and track outs, do not come to them as a "shock and surprise." They, more quickly, become smoother, more consistent and then the "line" is much easier to teach and comes along more rationally for them. In general, that's what I do.
06-06-2007, 01:54 PM
#35
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While I agree that teaching the line and the reason it exists is very important, there is the occaisional student who just wants to go fast. For them I make an exception with rules. If they just want to go fast in a straight line, I tell them as long as I feel safe that you will use your brakes appropriately when I tell you to, then I will tell you when you can floor the gas. I let them have their fun for the day, then I tell them that they really should try different sports, or at least drag racing. I always try to make the student have fun.
BTW, I have only had one student that was the point and shoot variety. Most come out to learn. For them, the concept of the line is more important than the line itself.
BTW, I have only had one student that was the point and shoot variety. Most come out to learn. For them, the concept of the line is more important than the line itself.
06-06-2007, 02:12 PM
#36
Race Director
Originally Posted by mitch236
BTW, I have only had one student that was the point and shoot variety. Most come out to learn. For them, the concept of the line is more important than the line itself.
Any after two 20 min sessions I was getting alittle sea-sick from the go in a straight line.and was happy for the lunch break. After lunch time I went looking for my student with the goal of working his vision and smoothness. He was no where to befound. I guess he went to lunch with his buddies and never came back. I was rather happy at the time since no more sickeness, but also a little disappointed. Was it my instructing that cause him to not return or just the he got bored? I don't know, but I still feel like I kind of failed on that one. Happens I guess however and that was 2 years ago I have never seen him back.
06-06-2007, 02:27 PM
#37
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Originally Posted by TR6
As a student, I absolutely believe teaching students 'the line' is important for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is to be safe and predictable to the other drivers on the track.
One additional comment I'll make as a student (not an instructor) is that I wish my very first instructor/DE had done more in terms of explaining WHY the line is important. I went out my first time with PCA and was told to drive the line, where the line is, apex, track out, etc, but no one explained all the reasons behind why its critical. Therefore, I didn't 'get it' like I should have. Now that I've got 10 (soon to be 12 this coming weekend) DE days under my belt and have started reading some great books like "Going Faster' and 'Speed Secrets', I understand the fundamental physics behind 'driving the line'. This has done two things for me: 1) I understand the physics concepts of the line and 2) I understand that there are many variations I can play with in driving a line and what the consequences or benefits are of each (early apex, late apex, wet track lines, etc). I'd like to see first time DE green groups spend 30 minutes or so before they ever go out on the track learning the fundamental concepts of what a line is and why it matters. I wish I'd read at least that basic chapter of 'Going Faster' before I had ever ventured onto a race track from day one.
One additional comment I'll make as a student (not an instructor) is that I wish my very first instructor/DE had done more in terms of explaining WHY the line is important. I went out my first time with PCA and was told to drive the line, where the line is, apex, track out, etc, but no one explained all the reasons behind why its critical. Therefore, I didn't 'get it' like I should have. Now that I've got 10 (soon to be 12 this coming weekend) DE days under my belt and have started reading some great books like "Going Faster' and 'Speed Secrets', I understand the fundamental physics behind 'driving the line'. This has done two things for me: 1) I understand the physics concepts of the line and 2) I understand that there are many variations I can play with in driving a line and what the consequences or benefits are of each (early apex, late apex, wet track lines, etc). I'd like to see first time DE green groups spend 30 minutes or so before they ever go out on the track learning the fundamental concepts of what a line is and why it matters. I wish I'd read at least that basic chapter of 'Going Faster' before I had ever ventured onto a race track from day one.
In the classroom I talk about the line and how to drive it, but never took the time to explain why we so faithfully teach it and how it is a great teaching aid. Thanks to Greg, I will incorporate a little more background on the "line" in my next classroom session.
Great Thread!
06-06-2007, 02:44 PM
#38
Race Director
OK, I know I'm going to get flamed, but screw it. I don't understand this garbage about "DE" line and a "racing" line. IMHO that's teaching students bad habits that will only have to be broken later and is doing students a disservice.
As Z-man essentially said, no line is perfect so you start with a base and work it and adjust it as necessary. Sure, starting with a little later apex is OK, but the basic line is the same. If it's adjusted a LOT then IMHO it's teaching bad things. IMHO a student should be taught a good proper line and reminded that safety is all in their hands and to drive accordingly. This whole concept of a "DE" line and a "racing" line is one reason I find it hard to buy into doing very much DE before racing. What the hell is being taught? If grown adults cannot be taught a proper line and coached to drive it safely, what the hell is the point? I don't get it.
My last event had people running some god-awful lines in the back section of TWS. I thought Ray Charles was instructing some of these people. When I showed one of my students the proper line his comment was "Wow, there is a LOT more track here than I thought." Yep. He was taught crap lines back there. All of my students were flat gobbling up people in the back section and, none of them were unsafe about it or unable to be trusted to run the proper line. Oh, and back to no line being perfect, we had to adjust one student's turn-in by about 20' from what I used and it worked great for him. THAT IMHO is what DE should be all about. Let's treat people like adults and expect them to act like adults.
As Z-man essentially said, no line is perfect so you start with a base and work it and adjust it as necessary. Sure, starting with a little later apex is OK, but the basic line is the same. If it's adjusted a LOT then IMHO it's teaching bad things. IMHO a student should be taught a good proper line and reminded that safety is all in their hands and to drive accordingly. This whole concept of a "DE" line and a "racing" line is one reason I find it hard to buy into doing very much DE before racing. What the hell is being taught? If grown adults cannot be taught a proper line and coached to drive it safely, what the hell is the point? I don't get it.
My last event had people running some god-awful lines in the back section of TWS. I thought Ray Charles was instructing some of these people. When I showed one of my students the proper line his comment was "Wow, there is a LOT more track here than I thought." Yep. He was taught crap lines back there. All of my students were flat gobbling up people in the back section and, none of them were unsafe about it or unable to be trusted to run the proper line. Oh, and back to no line being perfect, we had to adjust one student's turn-in by about 20' from what I used and it worked great for him. THAT IMHO is what DE should be all about. Let's treat people like adults and expect them to act like adults.
06-06-2007, 02:50 PM
#39
Race Director
Related to the point and shoot is the student who only drives a piece of the track at a time. I had one like this a few weeks ago. We worked on putting them all together. I explained it was like chess and you had to be planning a few moves ahead. This clicked and we worked on using one section to set up the next and before long he was super smooth and a joy to ride with.
06-06-2007, 03:10 PM
#40
Race Director
Originally Posted by Z-man
- Like others posted, I too drive "my line" on the streets. There's a neat set of on/off ramps to and from work that I really enjoy. There's a set of off-ramps in Franklin Lakes, NJ that I take every day. TWO sweeping turns -- both seem to work best as double apexes.
It is the highlight of my drive home!
-Z-man
06-06-2007, 04:04 PM
#41
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Hell, when I first started, my first instructor told me to "drive the line, drive the freaking (sp) line"! For the life of me, I couldn't find the painted line on the track! I finally, in total frustration, yelled at him, "what freaking (sp) line are you talking about"? He then explained it to me that it was an "imaginary" line, etc., etc. We both had a great laugh. It taught me a good lesson.
The point is to use clear words; keep the vocabulary on a short list; be consistent and do go over them carefully with the student. It really helps to reinforce your words and their understanding with your student and, at the end of the day, you are consistent as well.
The point is to use clear words; keep the vocabulary on a short list; be consistent and do go over them carefully with the student. It really helps to reinforce your words and their understanding with your student and, at the end of the day, you are consistent as well.
06-06-2007, 05:30 PM
#43
Burning Brakes
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For D E Events I follow the club's system. All the clubs I instruct for... and there are a lot of different marques... use the D E Line ie. late apex the corners tracking from outside... down to the apex... then going to track out. Most clubs put out the orange cones at the corners, giving students reference points. IMO... It's important to have the instructors following the same concepts that are being taught in the classroom.
My students are shown the braking point (in a straight line)... then turn in, bring the car to the apex, now start unwinding the steering wheel as you track out.
We work on being smoooooth.... and looking ahead....
One area that constantly needs attention is tracking out... getting the student to use the whole track. Saturday morning... they can get by with using ~ 2/3rds (or less) of the track on corner exit... but... by Sunday afternoon, they will need to use the whole track.
Inter-mediate and advanced students follow the same system... until I'm sure they can put the car in the correct place on the track, ie. the D E line. Then, I adapt my instructing to their level of experience.
My students are shown the braking point (in a straight line)... then turn in, bring the car to the apex, now start unwinding the steering wheel as you track out.
We work on being smoooooth.... and looking ahead....
One area that constantly needs attention is tracking out... getting the student to use the whole track. Saturday morning... they can get by with using ~ 2/3rds (or less) of the track on corner exit... but... by Sunday afternoon, they will need to use the whole track.
Inter-mediate and advanced students follow the same system... until I'm sure they can put the car in the correct place on the track, ie. the D E line. Then, I adapt my instructing to their level of experience.
06-06-2007, 05:39 PM
#45
Burning Brakes
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: Hhmmmm... YEP !!!This thread was starting to wander... racing lines, different lines for different cars, etc. & so-on !!!
Given that I have an advanced student that is capable... we will begin working on "trail-braking" which changes the whole concept of D E lines.Ahh... but thats for another thread.