NEW GT3 DRIVER AT A DE
05-11-2007, 01:58 PM
#16
Race Director
I know DE's do not do this but when I went to the Porsche school up at Barber they had me follow the instructor for the correct line and to keep speeds in check. That worked wonderfully for me and as I learned the track and car and worked on my driving skills the speeds got faster and faster.
05-11-2007, 02:08 PM
#17
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Tell him you want him to go out there "and hit the pace car!" - that'll freak him out 
He won't be able to go fast after that because he'll consider you a crazy man, and the entire time he's behind the wheel, and you are in the passenger seat, he'll have 1 eye on you, and 1 eye on the road...
It's worked for me in the past....
He won't be able to go fast after that because he'll consider you a crazy man, and the entire time he's behind the wheel, and you are in the passenger seat, he'll have 1 eye on you, and 1 eye on the road...
It's worked for me in the past....
05-11-2007, 02:36 PM
#18
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Guys, I have to admit I am once again over whelmed at the time you guys take to share your wealth of knowledge with all. You cant get this kind of references in any book or on line search.
this forum, because of you guys is really a special and great place for car drivers.
I thank you all for taking the time to answer and you are all to be commended!!
Your humble student.....tom
PS Mike sorry I didnt get ya as a student I also asked!!
see ya at dinner.
this forum, because of you guys is really a special and great place for car drivers.
I thank you all for taking the time to answer and you are all to be commended!!
Your humble student.....tom
PS Mike sorry I didnt get ya as a student I also asked!!
see ya at dinner.
05-11-2007, 02:38 PM
#19
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Originally Posted by BrianKeithSmith
Tell him you want him to go out there "and hit the pace car!" - that'll freak him out
He won't be able to go fast after that because he'll consider you a crazy man, and the entire time he's behind the wheel, and you are in the passenger seat, he'll have 1 eye on you, and 1 eye on the road...
It's worked for me in the past....
He won't be able to go fast after that because he'll consider you a crazy man, and the entire time he's behind the wheel, and you are in the passenger seat, he'll have 1 eye on you, and 1 eye on the road...
It's worked for me in the past....
I am still waiting to get a ride from you, Brian. Any chance you will be doing a Potomac region event in a near future?
05-11-2007, 02:46 PM
#20
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I'll be at the Potomac event at VIR (hopefully)
I'm registered. I'll be at First Settlers Memorial Day Weekend.
Hope to see you soon Mike...
Going to the dyno tomorrow for some tuning, so hopefully everything will go OK there...
Brian
I'm registered. I'll be at First Settlers Memorial Day Weekend.
Hope to see you soon Mike...
Going to the dyno tomorrow for some tuning, so hopefully everything will go OK there...
Brian
05-11-2007, 03:29 PM
#22
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Student's Perspective
When I was a total novice and stupid enough to take my Ferrari on track, one of my instructors had me do an exercise that I found amazingly helpful: he had me run the whole track (it was the Glen) in 6th gear, no brakes unless absolutely necessary. In other words, turn the torque monster into a momentum car. It was fun, it was fast, and it taught me lessons I still apply in my 944.
In addition, I agree that shifting should be kept to a minimum. There is so much to focus on as a new driver that instructors should try to eliminate unnecessary distractions. I don't know about the GT3, but it was easy for me to take all of LRP and most of Watkins Glen in third; I suspect the GT3 could do likewise.
I think setting a rev limit would also be distracting. If your student is looking at the gauges he is not looking up the track.
In addition, I agree that shifting should be kept to a minimum. There is so much to focus on as a new driver that instructors should try to eliminate unnecessary distractions. I don't know about the GT3, but it was easy for me to take all of LRP and most of Watkins Glen in third; I suspect the GT3 could do likewise.
I think setting a rev limit would also be distracting. If your student is looking at the gauges he is not looking up the track.
05-11-2007, 04:29 PM
#23
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Another student's view
In April 2005 I showed up at the Shenandoah Circuit at Summit Point with a new, completely stock GT3 for my first on-track experience. My instructor drives a GT3 and was very good about showing me the line and coaching me. I had a great time. I may have been a bit cautious and he may have been a bit aggressive, but we both had fun and I felt well in control. Shenandoah has lots of concrete barriers close to many parts of the track so even though it's not as fast as the Glen, it can be a bit scary, but the car is so well composed that I had no issues. Good luck!
05-11-2007, 04:31 PM
#24
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People are telling Tkerr to tell his GT3 student to leave the car in one gear in order to learn rudiments (turn-in, apex, momentum, brake points, etc). I'd contend that leaving the car in one gear will actually slow the learning process for the student, because he'll be worrying about revving too high or too low.
My first DE ever was at Sebring in the rain with a 993 turbo. I was 16. Yes, recipe for disaster; read on. The instructor, a guy in his 60s, drove the car for FIVE laps all in fifth gear (literally never shifted), and basically said nothing. I got in the driver's seat and had no idea what I was supposed to do, what a "line" was, when to shift gears, nothing. By the time I had completed ONE lap, the session was over. It was a wasted session and a wasted learning experience.
The point is that isolating one part of the driving exercise - in this case, shifting - doesn't necessarily correlate with increased awareness wrt other parts of driving. The student already knows how to change gears, and he likely does it without thinking, just like the rest of us.
So, regulate the guy's speed, not his shifting. Explain what a track is, why you "drift out of your lane," what the point of the whole event is. Once you get on the same page, that might be more helpful for all parties involved.
My first DE ever was at Sebring in the rain with a 993 turbo. I was 16. Yes, recipe for disaster; read on. The instructor, a guy in his 60s, drove the car for FIVE laps all in fifth gear (literally never shifted), and basically said nothing. I got in the driver's seat and had no idea what I was supposed to do, what a "line" was, when to shift gears, nothing. By the time I had completed ONE lap, the session was over. It was a wasted session and a wasted learning experience.
The point is that isolating one part of the driving exercise - in this case, shifting - doesn't necessarily correlate with increased awareness wrt other parts of driving. The student already knows how to change gears, and he likely does it without thinking, just like the rest of us.
So, regulate the guy's speed, not his shifting. Explain what a track is, why you "drift out of your lane," what the point of the whole event is. Once you get on the same page, that might be more helpful for all parties involved.
05-11-2007, 04:38 PM
#25
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Sebring has some good straights. Keep him limited to 3rd & 4th...If you need to... you can always put a limit on his top speed.
Then follow the basics... all braking and any shifting in a straight line, follow the D E line... concentrating on turn-in/apex/track out.
: Have fun !!!
05-11-2007, 04:39 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by nkhalidi
People are telling Tkerr to tell his GT3 student to leave the car in one gear in order to learn rudiments (turn-in, apex, momentum, brake points, etc). I'd contend that leaving the car in one gear will actually slow the learning process for the student, because he'll be worrying about revving too high or too low.
My first DE ever was at Sebring in the rain with a 993 turbo. I was 16. Yes, recipe for disaster; read on. The instructor, a guy in his 60s, drove the car for FIVE laps all in fifth gear (literally never shifted), and basically said nothing. I got in the driver's seat and had no idea what I was supposed to do, what a "line" was, when to shift gears, nothing. By the time I had completed ONE lap, the session was over. It was a wasted session and a wasted learning experience.
The point is that isolating one part of the driving exercise - in this case, shifting - doesn't necessarily correlate with increased awareness wrt other parts of driving. The student already knows how to change gears, and he likely does it without thinking, just like the rest of us.
So, regulate the guy's speed, not his shifting. Explain what a track is, why you "drift out of your lane," what the point of the whole event is. Once you get on the same page, that might be more helpful for all parties involved.
My first DE ever was at Sebring in the rain with a 993 turbo. I was 16. Yes, recipe for disaster; read on. The instructor, a guy in his 60s, drove the car for FIVE laps all in fifth gear (literally never shifted), and basically said nothing. I got in the driver's seat and had no idea what I was supposed to do, what a "line" was, when to shift gears, nothing. By the time I had completed ONE lap, the session was over. It was a wasted session and a wasted learning experience.
The point is that isolating one part of the driving exercise - in this case, shifting - doesn't necessarily correlate with increased awareness wrt other parts of driving. The student already knows how to change gears, and he likely does it without thinking, just like the rest of us.
So, regulate the guy's speed, not his shifting. Explain what a track is, why you "drift out of your lane," what the point of the whole event is. Once you get on the same page, that might be more helpful for all parties involved.
i disagree.. say if he stays in 3rd which tops out at 115 or so he should not be lugging the gear (below 2k rpm) nor need to exceed that speed..it doesn't matter if he's at ideal rpm...a novice has many things to learn and focus on taking one unimportant, at this point, thing out of the way helps even if he can shift fine
+ it will make the car act as a lower HP car which is needed initially
05-11-2007, 04:40 PM
#27
I think keeping it in one gear initially is a great idea. It is how you start out at PDE. I think we ran the first session or 2 in third and then only later were we allowed to go to fourth.
It really did help us pick up the line better for those of us that had never been there before.
I also like the idea of the instructor driving the car in the first session
However, in our area instructors are not allowed to drove their students car. 
It really did help us pick up the line better for those of us that had never been there before.
I also like the idea of the instructor driving the car in the first session
However, in our area instructors are not allowed to drove their students car.
05-11-2007, 05:00 PM
#28
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Tom - on the subject of how to deal with a student:
1) I never drive an entire session. Two laps at slow speed will do and between us instructors, the real reason we do it is to make sure the car is safe.
2) I really object to the x,000 RPM one gear policy. I will do that if I have a wild man on my hands. If on the other hand the driver is normal like 95 percent of the students, I will not impose a gear/rmp or speed limit unless we are going too fast on the straights. A novice will typically shift at around 5000 rpm which depending on the track is fine with me.
In other words, the one-size-fits all pattern of teaching runs contrary to my principles. I try and keep a novice at roughly the same speed as the group so as not to cause trains nor to lose focus on the basics because wew are passing too many cars.
On the rare occasion I am faced with a difficult to control driver I prefer to take them immediatly to the pits for a "chat". The on track session ends then and there. It usally brings them around. If it doesn't I get out and send them home.
Best,
Best,
1) I never drive an entire session. Two laps at slow speed will do and between us instructors, the real reason we do it is to make sure the car is safe.
2) I really object to the x,000 RPM one gear policy. I will do that if I have a wild man on my hands. If on the other hand the driver is normal like 95 percent of the students, I will not impose a gear/rmp or speed limit unless we are going too fast on the straights. A novice will typically shift at around 5000 rpm which depending on the track is fine with me.
In other words, the one-size-fits all pattern of teaching runs contrary to my principles. I try and keep a novice at roughly the same speed as the group so as not to cause trains nor to lose focus on the basics because wew are passing too many cars.
On the rare occasion I am faced with a difficult to control driver I prefer to take them immediatly to the pits for a "chat". The on track session ends then and there. It usally brings them around. If it doesn't I get out and send them home.
Best,
Best,
05-11-2007, 05:29 PM
#29
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Hey guys, read my reply again - it was an attempt at humor, staying in the driver's seat for the whole session. Then later I say that when he demands you pit-in...
I like the concept of using 4th in that car because when I see even Green (beginner - first time) students out on the track, it's unavoidable to get some speed into the car after a couple of warm-up laps. Perhaps 2 laps with instructor driving, then 2 warm-ups for the student in say 3rd and when he's ready, have him shift into 4th... and no harm in leaving it there for a while (as in a few sessions worth). The start of the learning process must focus on safety. Where are the flagging stations, what to do in traffic, how to allow a pass (or take one), etc. All while at the same time learning the dynamics of the car, the line, etc. Throwing 4-3 and 3-4 shifting into it initially is just not required. Now in the 3rd or 4th session if he's really doing well, no reason not to start the process of using the meat of the power and torque band.
I like the concept of using 4th in that car because when I see even Green (beginner - first time) students out on the track, it's unavoidable to get some speed into the car after a couple of warm-up laps. Perhaps 2 laps with instructor driving, then 2 warm-ups for the student in say 3rd and when he's ready, have him shift into 4th... and no harm in leaving it there for a while (as in a few sessions worth). The start of the learning process must focus on safety. Where are the flagging stations, what to do in traffic, how to allow a pass (or take one), etc. All while at the same time learning the dynamics of the car, the line, etc. Throwing 4-3 and 3-4 shifting into it initially is just not required. Now in the 3rd or 4th session if he's really doing well, no reason not to start the process of using the meat of the power and torque band.
05-11-2007, 05:33 PM
#30
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I may never be an instructer but I learned to drive on the track in a 996 GT3 and I think the best advice is limit RPM to no more than 5,000 for a few sessions. The 996 was much more controlable at the lower RPM's and it really takes off after. I have heard that the 997 is an easier car to drive.
Boyd
Boyd