JSG1901

I don't see the point of shuffle-steering. I can't think of a track I've ever been on--including autocross courses--where it was necessary to move your hands to navigate any of the turns. Mid-Ohio's Carousel, for instance, is a reasonably tight turn but easily driven without moving your hands on the wheel.

Once you start moving your hands you've lost several things. First, you don't know where straight ahead is anymore. Second, you're not ready for a slide. If you're going into a turn and the car starts to slide you have two possibilities: (1) it's pushing, in which case you need to get out of the gas a bit or add LESS steering (or both); or (2) it's oversteering, in which case you need to be able to unwind fast enough to get ahead of the slide.

If you walked your hands around the wheel as you were working your way into the turn and suddenly have to unwind--even countersteer--well, you've got a problem on your hands. You can't go from where you are to steering in the opposite direction without moving things around again AND you don't know where straight ahead is so you can get it all cleaned up and going the right way again.

I don't think it's coincidence that Bertil Roos is the only racing school that teaches shuffle-steering. None for me, thanks.

Larry Herman

I think that this is one of the techniques that works for some, and not for others. I find that I have more feel and steering accuracy with at least one hand in the 3 or 9 o'clock position. That is my frame of reference. How can you have precision when your hands are crossed over each other?

As far as knowing where the wheel is, I know where it is. I can tell with my eyes glued to the track where TDC is just by feel, I don't have to look at that little yellow stripe to know. And that is my point, it works for me....it may not work for you and that is ok, but just because it doesn't, don't say that it has no value. For some of us it does.

Veloce Raptor

It's funny how a discussion of using castor to help center the wheel has morphed into yet another shuffle steering debate.

Sean F

Sorry, I think I did that. It wasn't really about shuffle steering though. It was simply an observation about TD's video combined with recent conversations that I've had with the coach that I use (and a couple of friends use as well) whose premise is that you need a light touch on the wheel to feel small changes that are communicated through the steering wheel. In a car like mine and I thought I saw in TD's, that's more difficult if you're really using a lot of muscle to move the wheel around because it forces you to have an overly tight grip and puts tension through your arms into your hands. He advises me to put my hands in a position so that I can keep a light grip. For me, that's just a few turns...not most or even many.

RickBetterley

If you guys would just slow down a bit, you wouldn't have to worry about all of this shuffle steering stuff.

TD in DC

Ironically, I think that exactly the opposite is true. The higher your corner entry speed, the less dramatic inputs, including steering inputs, are necessary to rotate the car. So, if you guys would just speed up a bit, you wouldn't have to worry about all of this shuffle steering stuff.

chris walrod

While caster does play a role in steering effort, it offers more of a damping role and some weight jacking in the case of a racecar. High amounts of caster increase camber gain. Trail is designed into the geometry to help with steering feel and wheel centering ability.

forklift

+1, sums it up for me perfectly.

Also, the RSA rack is slow and requires more input/angle, correct? I drove my buddies SC a few months ago and couldn't believe how quick the steering was.

There is one place where I let the wheel slip through my fingers and that is coming out of that crazy slow right hander, the corkscrew at....Shenandoah. AFAIK there is no fast way to get through this corner. At 1:32 on this video, http://members.rennlist.com/forklift/SC.1.40.53.wmv I have my hands at 3 & 9, but that little yellow mark is at the 6:00 position, not 12:00 and I need it back to 12:00 quickly. It seemed quite natural to do it (consistently), but maybe I need a flame suit for this? Also, plenty of shuffle steering in that vid, slow corners and a slow rack = shuffle.

hammerwerfer

I would have to disagree with that. I believe that pushing, or punching the wheel is far quicker than pulling. It may take some time to get used to but the concept seems to work for me. I don not believe that you can pull something as fast as you can push it. Think of throwing a punch or putting the shot. You hand can move away from your body much faster than you can pull it toward you.

It does take some practise, and a slight reprogramming of the grey matter.

h

Nordschleife

Odd, I thought we were 'turning' the wheel. Using both hands working in concert. No punching!

'Hammering down the road' is not a literal expression.

Kung Foo fighter say 'if you only know how to use a hammer, all your problems look like nails'
R+C

JSG1901

I see what you mean, but the reason you need to let go of the wheel to get it to return quickly enough is because you are shuffle-steering. Had you left your hands in the original 3- and 9-o'clock positions, you could simply un-steer. But, since you shuffled over, you need to shuffle back (which is slow) or let go of the wheel (which is potentially dangerous).

hammerwerfer

I am referring to the quickest way to move the wheel, generally in a countersteering situation. The technique is used all the time by rally drivers, less so by circuit drivers.

It is just that we are physically better equipped to push quicker than pull.

It feels more natural to pull, and gravity is assisting the motion as well, but pushing is the way forward.i

TD in DC

Well, I will keep an open mind, but keep in mind that the pushing/pulling discussion was really meant to describe hand position. Nothing you do will change the force required to turn the wheel. The only issue is where you place your hands. If I understand you correctly, you think that pushing is quicker." In other words, in a right hand turn, putting in countersteer by pushing up with your right hand would be faster than pulling down with your left hand. To me, it is much easier to take your hand from an extended position and pull it back in to the "normal" 9 and 3 position than it is to take a hand from the normal position and extend it.

I do know from sports that it is much easier to grab something and pull it closer to you than it is to push something away . . .

Nordschleife

From my own experience, if you are in a counter steering situation and have to move the wheel so quickly that you need to 'punch' the wheel, you are behind the game. On tarmac you are not going to adopt such extreme attitudes as you are on gravel or snow. Watch the top drift practitioners, for them the process is so leisurely that they can even take time out to wave at the crowd.

In any sport, what one starts off learning to do quickly, one very soon learns to slow down for better control and improved performance. It may often look quick, but in reality its quite leisurely.

R+C

FTS

Even though I am late to the discussion, darn I just skipped checking messages for 20 hours or so, I thought I can add few notes.

This is my first Porsche and I feel that the castor we get out of these cars, mine is about 7.5-7.8 deg, is such a wonderful luxury. With my previous cars, Bimmers and Subbies, I was lucky to get anything near 5 deg. That 2.5 deg does make a difference, and of course having a lighter front-end to go with that is a big help as well.

On the track, I am no where as fast as you are Todd, so my experience on the track is not quite relevant. However, on an autox course, the castor is a very significant help. I use street tires and slipn' and slidin' is a way of life for me in autox. With very rapid transitions, mostly somewhat side ways, there is no way for me to keep up with my hands; I almost entirely rely on castor. Its self corrective action is not something I can match with my hands. And because of the speed of that correction and change in the direction force vector with the steering, I do not need to make futher changes in the steering input beyond what the castor is doing.

Even on the skid pad exercises we did recently, I relied on castor to straighten the car following the slides (oval skid pad, not circular), rather than doing constant steering input and correction, and I have to say it worked quite well. The best part for me is that because I am not constantly fiddling with inputs, corrective action seems to come naturally and keeps me calmer, which is something a greener like me needs

Cheers,

FT