smlporsche

The zone 2 event is the only one I run at VIR (and I do several each year) that allow passing on either side comming out of Oak Tree....

The big issue in my way of thinking is for the student groups to have a clear and defined set of rules. They have alot on their plate learning the line, braking points etc and you need to keep things black and white to avoid potential confusion at speed.

Black & Red should be able to pass where they want or mutually agree to.

White could go either way as I said it did not appear to be an issue for our White group.

Todsimpson

I don't think it's a good idea (to pass only on one certain side).

Slower car keeps the line and a car that's passing changes his line for the pass IMO is the best way to do it.

The question is, what is the line out of oak tree? The slow guy stays left, starts giving pass signs to the right. Halfway down the straight, he panics, moves to the right to get back on line and starts giving signs on the other side. There are also 3-4 other passes happening at the same time, and those people got over to the right immediately after oak tree.

I'd rather see drivers come out of oak tree, get right and wave everyone by on the left.

Maybe oak tree is a special example because so many passes can happen there. Or maybe someone who needs to wave 5-6 people by on one straight should bump themselves down.

JayP

Why not let the person giving the passing signal dictate which side?

If it's not a good side to pass, then the passee can wait. I'll tell students to get behind the slower car anticipating the signal and 90% of the time it's the side we're on.

ekeeton

What's the point of "the point" if it has to be to a predetermined side? Hopefully the car being overtaken is aware of the proper line and will "move over" for faster overtaking cars when safely possible. (This does not mean going off line when the turn has already been entered.) Nothing guarantees that the car being passed will actually be able to accommodate. It's always the overtaking car's responsibility to accomplish the pass safely.

But having to do esses down a straightaway to pass slower cars indicates to me that the overtaken cars were unaware of the proper line and passing lanes which further indicates the possibility of incorrect group assignments.

But again, this is DE. If your name is Roger Racer, go racing.

Mike Buck

The car being passed just needs to stay on their line (left side or right side of track). Point by to the direction you want the passing car to go and don't move until they are clear. Pretty simple no? The second your arm goes out the window, your current location is now your side of the track, be it left or right.

In my experience, getting back on "the line" before giving a passing signal can waste valuable time that could be better used letting folks pass cleaning. T2 at Summit Point for example. I point faster folks by on the right there all the time on that short straight leading to T3. I tuck in behind when they go past if I want to take "the line" through there. Sometimes I just stay all the way track left. Track conditions may dictate I take a full left line and drovers should practice it.

Larry Herman

See, now here is why this this discussion is so important. I do not agree with what Mike does here (no flame intended). I want the driver in front of me (in this turn) to stay with the line, cross the track immediately and let me by on the left. I am faster then them due to more cornering speed, or more HP, and I would rather stay left and close at trackout than have to swing over to the right to make the pass.

And what about a car behind me? If they want to pass, then Mike has to move over to the right, in front of them, so that they can pass on the left. Too much zigzagging. I'll wait that extra second to be able to pass on the inside of what is the approaching turn. I really think that that should be cast in stone.

So if the line crosses the track, and there are cars behind you, my vote is to cross the track immediately and let then let them by on the inside.

mitch236

I can't believe this is even a topic. The fact is that the car giving the pass SHOULD STAY ON LINE and point the overtaking car by OFF LINE. Occaisionally there will be areas of a track that become confusing but the experienced drivers seem to do quite well. I agree that the fewer rules the better. The problems start when a slower driver tries to be polite and gets off line to point cars by. That is a big problem. STAY ON LINE!!!! Be predictable.

mitch236

I just read what Larry wrote and agree that if the line crosses the track, the slower car should cross as soon as safely possible and then point faster cars by.

Larry Herman

I just received a few PMs on this and wanted to add the following.

1) Most drivers in the black and red groups do this fairly well. They also should have the experience to know wether in a specific instance they can go off-line and allow a car to go by on-line. It should make sense to both them and the passer.

2) The most problems are in the Blue and White groups where either the instructor is purposely being quiet, or the driver is solo'd. There consistency is paramount and all passing cars should go off-line.

Flying Finn

You're right, oak tree is a little special case but in general, the rule shoyuld be as I mentioned earlier and even in oak tree, person giving the point by, needs to know what he/she is doing. If he points by to the right, he stays left and since you need to give a point by to each car that you are letting pass you, moving over to the other side shouldn't be a problem.
(you point by two cars, one they have passed you, you move to the right and point by to the left)
I don't think someone needs to bump themselves down if they are driving well but they have a very slow car. If you put i.e. Van Overbeck out in a stock 1.8l 914 and then a solid solo or instructor driver in a 997 RSR, Van Overbeck will have hard time staying ahead and I wouldn't bump him down. Key is of course that the driver in a slow car is aware of things behind and points faster cars by.

Z-man

There is one more situation that hasn't been mentioned -- the driver who has his fist out of the window and is limping back to the pits due to a mechanical issue. In that case, said slow moving car should be driving offline, and cars overtaking him should be on the line -- no additional point-by is necessary, since a fist out the window in such a situation also allows cars to pass (if it is proper to do so)

At least that's the way I understand the rules to be.

Thoughts?
-Z-man.

M758

Mike Buck

I think T2 to T3 is a spot where you can go by either way. That was my point. If everyone knows the rules and stays to the side of the track where the point by initiates, then there isn't a problem. Don't know about a multiple car pass there. That isn't a huge of amount of room unless both cars are much faster then the passe and therefore I give a point for each car in the direction I want them to go. A hard stance on on-line off-line passing rules just doesn't seem perfect to me.

If I point you by to the right coming out of T2 because I want you to go there and I don't see you take it, I will continue on "the line" and come back track right. At which time I will probably give you the point to the left. I give folks the early option coming out of T2 if they want to take it though. Works well in the upper run groups better, like you said.

Tspringer

Yet Another scenario where eliminating the rule for any point by being required is the best solution.... instructors run groups only of course....


Terry

spazegun2213

I have to agree with mike here. Driving an even slower 944 I'll give people a point to the right practically in 2, just to get them by. Its a DE not racing, and i know what it feels like to be held behind a car thats so much slower. If there are several cars I might give 2, 3, 4 points, as many as it takes if the situation dictates (ie, its safe for the X number of cars to pass on the right).

I think that hard passing rules are silly (not to say they are not there for a reason in the less experienced groups), but I'll try to make my point with Mid-Atlantic NASA HPDE group 3, its as high as you can go without being a racer or instructor. Passing is ANYWHERE, but a point by is REQUIRED... if you are in this group the odds are you know your stuff and can make calls about which side to point, and car control, and safety. You should also have a level of trust for the other people in that group (if you dont something should be said). But you should trust them to give you a point when they feel its right, where ever that point may be. This allows for very few trains, or waiting for someone to follow the line so they can give you a point on the "proper" side.

A lot of this really is about situational awareness, if the passe thinks the passer can make it safely, give them a point. If not.. wait.. and if the passer is not comfortable, dont take it... its not the end of the world to wave off a pass. I've taken some really weird passes in HPDE 3, and I've also give some, waved off some and had some waved off.