jakermc

Electronics can be a great teacher actually. When I was at Bondurant the Corvettes are wired so that you can not turn off their version of PSM. When I was driving it kicked in often but my instructor was able to go faster without it ever kicking in. Why? He was smooooth in everything he did, while I have a tendency to toss a car around and slide more.

This turned out to be helpful. If I wasn't smooth the electronics kicked in and ruined my fun. It was like having a nun in the passenger seat hitting me with a ruler every time I made a mistake. It forced me to concentrate more on being smooth, and less on speed, with the end result of lower lap times. When it kicked in I would think about why it kicked in and changed my inputs accordingly.

That said, I would NOT want to drive with it on for any length of time. But for practice sessions it can be a good tool.

JayP

Did an instructor drive the car to confirm? In all honesty, once you (and the instructors) decided PSM should have been turned off, an instructor should have been in the car. "PSM on" and "PSM off" are 2 different animals.

Could the PSM have been triggered because the tires were hot and losing traction because the driver was off-line, missing apexes and forcing the car?

RonCT

Oh no, the dreaded PSM on/off debate. Well, there are plenty of us that feel leaving PSM / DSC alone can be a tremendous teacher in a DE environment. Here's why - you have to be very smooth to not have it get in the way. And with respect to the DE environment, this is not racing and for most these cars are not "track only" - so we want every possible aide to make sure we drive them home. If leaving PSM on means you only experience 9.5/10ths instead of 10/10ths, then that margin of safety could be the difference between driving home and a flatbed.

As for the argument - "real drivers don't use electronic aides", well then I guess every F1 driver is a wimp because they all have TC.
http://www.formula1.com/insight/tech...fo/11/462.html

To me there are two schools and they are both correct. One school is a driver that might have a track-only car and it has no TC, PSM, ABS, etc. and that driver is out to learn the limits of what he has - or a driver with a car that has electronics but chooses to drive without. The other might have a more modern car that has the electronics and wants to have a margin of safety, yet can still have a great time in White or Black, or even be an instructor (I know plenty of instructors that leave controls on).

Another point on PSM is that you might be able to control what you do behind the wheel (meaning if there was nobody else on the track, you might always turn it off), but you cannot control when somebody else dumps coolant or oil on the line and there's no warning from the flagging stations.

I've personally seen too many crashes into tire walls over the years with casual DE drivers (mostly in the more novice run groups) who come out and do a "spin and stuff" cycle. When interviewed the conclusion is they disabled the electronics with or without instructor knowledge ("I turn it off on the street - I'm a good driver and don't need PSM/ DSC...") and that if they had not, the car probably would not have entered the death spiral.

For me, the only time DSC on my M3 ever spoke up was unexpected debris (coolant and oil) or cresting the uphill at Lime Rock where the rear end went weightless for a millisecond. Otherwise, it never got in the way and alternatively, was like a teacher holding a ruler behind me - so I made sure to keep things relaxed and ultra-smooth else I'd get whacked. These aides do allow for plenty of "normal" drift, rotation, etc. - they just don't like when yaw is beyond reason, which means you shouldn't be there anyway (unless you are a drifter at DEs).

Have I gone without DSC? Sure, hard to be in Black (or BMW equivalent) run group for 2 years, be invited to be an instructor, and not run with and without. But I'm probably quicker around the track with it on in the background and then there's that tiny bit of "piece of mind" that when the unexpected happens, I'll have a little help getting out of a bad situation.

RedlineMan

Hey;

Quite frankly, your early instructors sucked. They did not do a good job of assessing your ability to drive smoothly and with a good sense of control. They let you go solo before they had given you the skills to manage the car properly, and taught you the reason for doing so. That Speed Happens through good technique, not sinew and spit flying.

To let someone go before you have taught them to be a thnking, feeling driver, to read the information coming back to them from the car - which they have created by their inputs - is doing them a disservice. You were gyped.

Get the best instructor you can find and when he says "You've got it. There's nothing more I can teach you," then go solo.

Ed Hughes

I can see why some form of electronic control would be a good tool for a driver with more experience, such as the two examples above. But, it is my opinion that someone going out to some form of HPDE event needs a foundation to build on, and should have some skill at controlling the car with no aids. Then, use that later to refine the skills.

I go back to the thread author's statement that he'll have "PSM on next time, as he doesn't trust his skills". To me, this doesn't mean it's on "in the background", but rather that it's being RELIED on to drive the car at excessive speed.

Juan Lopez

Agree + this goes back to the fundamentals of weight transfer, momentum, inertia/dynamics, contact patches and your traction "budget".

I know I digress and this is not directed at you nor your instructors necesarily but I find that a lot of instruction is being missed by lack of "in classroom" instruction before and after "on track" instruction. IMHO, that's where we all learn from the ontrack experience. And yes, I'm a former instructor....

I personally do mental laps before and after I do track laps. Great learning experience.

RonCT

If I remember correctly, the instructors that gave me my first solo were very cautious in general. Not that I was an issue, but just that they weren't about to put anyone out there that wasn't 100% ready for it. They also made sure I left DSC on as they felt that would be a good tool until I was ready to turn it off many track days later.

As to leaving the electronics on and not "learning", that's just not what I find. There's plenty to learn when the car will give you quite a bit of yaw before kicking in. By that time, you already know you are beyond where you should be. The DSC / PSM is in a way like having a quiet instructor in the car with you. He's going to let you experiment and learn the limits of the car, but if you take it a little too far (or if you find unreported oil / coolant), then Hal is going to intercede on your behalf.

I've gone both ways with the PSM / DSC argument and can be happy with it on or off, or with a car that has it or doesn't. But I find that leaving it alone for a long while until you can really control the car and be very smooth pays dividends. There are too many students out there that turn it off too soon and end up in trouble. Those in Black certainly should be at a point where they can drive with it on or off an not make any difference...

Sean F

Ah the PSM debate again. Just ask yourself why Porsche and Hurley Haywood who runs the program advised you to keep it on. If it was broken, the first question probably should have been should I call it a day and go get this looked at, not - should I turn it off and head out there. The one pro instructor that I have worked with when he rides in cars with PSM demands that it stays on - he thinks it's a great teaching/learning tool.

Geo

I'm not going to get into the debate about instructors or any of that.

I just want to welcome you to the world of learning behind the wheel. Congratulations. You're normal - like most of us. I'd rather substitute the word respect in place of fear. Always have a respect of what the car, track, and other drivers can do (good and bad).

I predict you will do fine.

Tron999

What exactly does this have to do with anything else? Did the stock parts break when you spun?

All I know is, if you're spinning twice in a DE, you have to dial yourself back a little bit, and get an instructor in the car.

richard glickel.

Norman,

No instructor is going to do that. And certainly not early on.

richard glickel.

+1

Rassel

Excellent! This is invaluable experience you got right there. Now you know somewhat how some of the limits of the car works! Great that you take some time to analyze why it happened.

And FYI. There is an old saying: If you haven't gone off-track, you haven't tried hard enough..

cviles

Yes, this thread again. I don't mean to be argumentative Dirty Mac, and I'm glad you're safe and have a chance to learn from your experience, but to be frank it's always the guys I hear say that "my stability control system is just slowing me down" that flatbed their cars home at the end of the day. I've seen it happen many times, and I'm just a lowly drover. I can't imagine how often instructors see this at event after event.

I have a simple rule I like to follow regarding electronic stability systems: If you don't know why and can't predict when the system will activate before you do something, you need to leave it on. As a safety-critical system, these things are engineered to be pretty much bulletproof. A fault in the stability system, especially without a warning light, is the last thing I'd suspect as a problem. I've been behind plenty of cars I can smell cooking their brakes as their stability systems save their drivers because they're not ready to be solo.

PSM only intervenes for me in three situations:

1. I screw up.
2. I screw up.
3. I use a curbing to rotate my car.

Otherwise, the system is quiet. As I progress to more advanced techniques, I'm sure I'll find more ways to provoke the system. Until then PSM makes it a lot cheaper to get there as I'm not paying for sheet metal, track repairs, or medical bills. PSM is like my seatbelt; I always wear it.

Another item to keep in mind is that not all stability control systems are created equal, and to consider the source of the advice you get. PSM in my 987 is lightyears ahead of the DSC system in my M3. PSM in 997/987 is different from that present in 996/986 cars. The activation thresholds of a system in a luxocruiser will be lower than those in a sport car. When someone recommends to turn yours off, ask what they've got and why they don't use it before making your own decision.

Flying Finn

Those are tricky corners. I often get little oversteer on T7 but as I'm used to it and more comfortable, it's not a surprice and I can deal with it easier. This is not to say I can't spin there since it is a tricky corner.
I saw 996 turbo go into the wall there and know one GT3 that did the same.
Both of those occasions it was oversteer, then either over correction or not enough correction (I think GT3 went to the left side wall because of over correcting).
Also, turn at the and of the back straight is tricky, I saw another 996 TT go into the wall there, oversteer.

Based on your explanation when you run into a situation where you are driving "too fast" (I'm sure someone could've cleared the corner the way you were going but iot was "too fast" for you) and you can't make the turn, drive it out straight while GENTLY slowing down, usually not braking, just slowing down by easing off the throttle and then gently applying brake. Once you're goign slow enough, you can return to the track.
Watch the video on my sig. I go out in T1 in Sebring becasue I determined I can't "make it" and the end result is that I visit the grass and then continue, even at that time I probably could've made it on asplhalt but I decided to go "out" since I though that was the best way at that moment.
Also, once in Homestead I did the same thing in T1, I was chased by couple of faster cars and came in little too fast and decided it's not worth trying to make it and visited grass. Again, no harm done.

I agree with others, I would ask some experienced instructor to ride with you next time and when ever you have a chance and it rains during you track day, go out and try oversteering & understeering situations in corners where it's safe (in Homestead, hairpin is a good place).