Sean F

If that is the case then this policy could be changed by the insurer at any time to no longer include DE? Since it is not a specific DE policy like in the other thread this could change.

As this is just regular auto insurance then you could cancel your current policy, right?

Mark in Baltimore

Just spoke to Erica at Ellington and am awaiting policy info. Also have a call into Chris at Snellings Walters.

I'm still in disbelief...

jaholmes

Whew...Thank God IL is covered. It is about time we have more options, this has been sorely needed. I too looked at Laurel but the deductible was way too high. I was ok with the cost of the policy at last years rates not the new rates. The new guys will make money by making it affordable because more people will be buying the insurance.

BC

Thanks for your comments John. I have been trying to find a niche on this for a few years. That way, I could put that company's logo on my "Race car" next to my numbers and (Ahem) call the experience a write off.

The issue here is that this agency in NC has actual contact with what is described in my short convo Erika as a Regional (insert Corporate level noun here) and there has been direct question to the law department on this specific question.

More info I do not have as of yet. But I did verify that I can write this exact policy in CA

Jeez - you're the lawyer right? No, seriously, the issue here is that they have simply allowed the inherent ambiguity of the words in the policy to allow for the perception that a DE on a race track is simply PERSONAL USAGE of the PERSONAL VEHICLE on private property. That the only thing that has changed. You crack up somebody else's car? Well, if they choose to they can claim that damage against you. What FF will do is unknown, except that they seem to want this business.

The profit is that it increases the risk by so little, and FF's risk pool has more then enough premium to do this. They have looked at the loss ratios, they have looked at thier filings in these 22 states as it pertains to premiums possible. It may be written into the policy in UN-ambiguous wording, or it may just be a back door situation. My loss ratios are 17% combined. The rest of my "brethern" in my preferred company are at 80.

For the amount of premium this could create, honestly, there is really no problem. Yes, there is the occasional Gt3 that gets chunked - but how many times has that happened?

And what is insurance for? To transfer risk for paid premiums.

Lastly, Fireman's Fund is not a CHEAP carrier. They are a high value home carrier, as is Chub, that is interested in the 5000 sqft home a few miles from the ocean here in Sandy, with the wife driving the Cayenne or ML63, and the husband with a M5 for work, and the GT3 for the weekends. Here thats called "Middle Market" and thats where I am and will stay, client-wise, Thats their market, and they want it. They have created a "Green Rebuild" policy for homes - you build your home according to the Kyoto protocol or whatever, they guarantee to replace it with those materials instead of normal one. They are inventive and professional, and are interested in writing good risks and they charge accordingly. I only wish more companies were like them.

Anyway, this is more then most wanted to know about P&C probably.

BC

Yes, it is a regular personal lines policy, and can be treated that way. Remember Adding coverage is easy, taking it away involves the state in many situations.

Sean F

I guess my concern would be the same as any other policy then...especially considering that such a high percentage of companies are adding specific clauses to carve out DE's. However, I would think if that happened you could just cancel your policy and switch to the other option of the DE specific policy.

Janni

I have Fireman's Fund now - in NC - for both my home and cars. They have never had the exclusion for racing or time trials. I am not sure that trying to pass this off as DE or race car insurance is particularly ethical - and will likely drive the verbiage right into these policies about the time the first claim comes through for a car totaled at a DE or club race.

I have called my long time agent and asked her to research this - since I have been with FF since 1997 with the "prestige" policy. We maintained comprehensive only on our first racecar because it had a VIN and they were OK with that - of course it would have been valued only as a stock Viper. The current car does not have a vin and therefore needed Storage, Tranport and Paddock insurance at about 1% of the value as an annual premium.

Firemans Fund is a great company - I am thinking the agent is taking some pretty scary liberties here with a current "loophole" in the policy.

BC

This is all true. We are not held hostage by companies. We are the customer, and inline, I, the agent, am the customer of the companies as well. I remind them of that every day.

Hold your concerns close. On this policy there seems to be someone with some logic though.

LVDell

This is my very problem with this insurance. I have been with USAA for 15+ years and haven't had a claim but once (minor amount) and my policies have absolutely ZERO mention of track exclusions. I made sure to grill my rep I was on the phone with but in such a way to not scream "HEY, I DO HIGH SPEED DRIVING EVENTS WILL YOU COVER THAT?". For this policy that FF is offering to be called a DE "friendly" policy is one that, like I said, scares the crap out of me should I switch from USAA to FF and then have to make a claim but then at thgat point have wording that track events are not covered since the influx of guys doing hardcore DE or club racing making claims changes the policies so that they protect their capital from paying the high dollar claims. I mean come on, the "incidents" you have on a track are not going to be like your run of the mill fender bender or stop light rear end job. These track incidents usually involve totally out a car or spending a crazy amount of money to repair. Especially in the case of those of us with GT3's and Cups. Just my $.02 based on perception and hearing all sides. What I really need is some solid wording from FF that really addresses this rather than feel like I am signing up so an agent can sign up 100's of us to make some serious commision based on a loophole. And no, I am not accusing this agent of unscupulous tactics but rather want to make sure whose best interest she is it in for?

Janni

I'll post the results of the investigation that my long time agent is doing tomorrow. Again - I've had a FF Prestige Policy for almost 10 years - I have both the HO and auto policies right here in my desk - and - although they never had THE EXCLUSION - they in no way are a DE / club racing policy.

I will trust my agent to be straight with me - she already has my business and she'll want to insure my race car if she can - but only if it's for "real" coverage - there's no way she'll steer me wrong with a policy that *might* cover on track activities.

LVDell

Janni, thanks for the update. Please report back when you get a more concrete answer from your agent. Thanks again!

BC

This is all valid. What happens is that if the company decides to change wording (Remember the ambiguity is always on your side, the customer), and you are caught out cold, the agent is looked at closely. What was said? Was anything promised with material misrepresentation? Did he or she write anything down for the insured? Bam - and E&O claim happens and noone is happy.

I think a correct perception is "Is it explicitly excluded?"

Me? I am much more concerned about liability.

Either way, I think this info is important, and any info I receive I will post here. We all have a business to run, it just happens that this IS my business.

RICHVIZZ951

I told Erika she was gonna be swamped today.

Anyone get their quotes yet?? I did Not as of yet, as of this morning she was the only one who handeled it.

JerseyBean Dont know about NJ, I am in NY now.

Sean F

I must be missing something here

Jerseybean

My car resides in Nyack, that counts right?