jford

Just throwing this out for general thoughts and discussion.

As I get ready for this season and reflect back on last year. I was thinking about a few incidents last year, at Summit Point particularly.

In one I came around turn ten myself and hit a patch of antifreeze and did a full 360 spin, luckily not hitting anything. Later that day, or could have been that season, there were a bunch of offs in the chute with a bit of damage to a few cars. I believe antifreeze was the culprit there. Even if not I know that it has caused more than its shares of damage and close calls. One of the really scary things is that you may not even see it coming of course.

Do you think a coolant other than antifreeze should be mandated?
Is there a significant difference in cooling effectiveness for H2O vs. AF?
Would this lessen than chances of an off it another driver were to hit the spilled H2O vs. the AF?

No flame intended for the "water pumper" guys...heck some of my best freinds drive water cooled cars. My brother for instance, although, he seems to spend more time under the car at DE's than in it. Got his own trailer this year thankfully!

Jamie

J Silverman

Water alone is actually a better coolant than mixing with anti freeze and its not nearly as slick, but you cant keep h2o in the system in the winter time. I personally dont think that they should require h2o like you would in a race car because the car at DEs are mostly street driven and the added work may scare off beginners which IMO is who DEs are geared towards. Coolant is one of those hazards of driving on a race track, and is no different than hitting an oil slick, or having some wildlife run across the track.

TD in DC

Jaime, I feel your pain. My water pumper once belched out antifreeze on its own front tires, and I almost spun in T4 and Oaktree at VIR. I run water and water wetter in mine as soon as the season is warm enough that I do not fear freezes.

jford

Jason I do see your point but.....I think water/antifreeze on the track is far more common than oil..at least as far as I have seen. Also, outside of proper maintenance there is not much you can do re: oil, that is to say that there is no alternative to using oil AFAIK. With coolant there is.

Had I hit the wall and totalled my car I could be out 50K for somone not taking an hour to change out some fluid.

As for beginers in DE I think you may be right about it being a deterent. Perhaps require non antifreeze coolants in solo run groups. Speeds are faster and as far as the hastle in changing fluids..those in these higher groups have obviuosley made a comitment to DE so I don't think the swap should be a big deal at that point.

Jamie

M758

NASA requires water only in race cars. For a race car this is not hard to comply with. In a DE car requiring water only is a major hassle since you have to expect DE cars to be street driven.

100% Water does work better for cooling, but you need some antifreeze to protect against freezing and to provide some lubrication. In race cars water wetter provides the lube.

jford

Joe, I hear what you are saying but realistically the coolant need be changed just twice a year. Spring and Fall. Most drivers in upper run groups change tires, brake pads and oil much more frequentley and, in the case of the oil and pads, with more time and hasstle than required for coolant.

I know that if I ran and water cooled car and caused an accident from a broken coolant line I would feel quite bad knowing that I did have some control with little time and money invested.

In the case of the accidents in the chute at Summit cars actually collided with other cars that were already off. I saw one driver huridly leaping over a tire wall to avoid and oncoming, out of control, car.

Jamie

M758

That not the case in all areas. In Arizona our DE season is in the winter and it is common to have a mutiple freezing temps in the mornings through out the driving season. This does not mention guys who live in colder areas and drive to Phoenix to do DE's. Race cars need to deal with this, but it is way too much for DE guys. When you are on the limit hitting water or oil or even antifreeze will cause the same thing. Loss of control. It really does not matter much because if you on it any loss of grip is a problem. The issue with antifreeze is mostly that it is much harder to clean where as water simply drys.

BTW... it is easier to change oil than coolant since you don't need to bleed the system to change the oil.

jford

Joe,

Good points did not consider those driving from sub freezing to warmer climates. Also havn't changed coolant in ages so was not sure how much was involved.

Jamie

TheOtherEric

At a DE event a couple years ago, I saw a car spin then roll up an embankment, obviously destroying the car and perhaps injuring the driver, because a 944 dumped its antifreeze on the track in front of him. So I perceive antifreeze as a real danger and would definitely support some reasonable common-sense efforts to minimize the danger there.

But first I'd be interested to know how much more slippery antifreeze is than water. If the answer is "very little" then this isn't a worthwhile discussion.

Willard Bridgham 3

The difference in friction coefficient between water and glycols is veeerrryy small on asphalt/concrete.

Another problem and perhaps the most significant difference is that water evaporates quickly and glycol will hang around for a long time, waiting to be wetted again.

mhm993

I'd like to know the slippery difference between h2o and glycol. Realizing it's not too practical for street cars, I definitely have first hand experience spinning in freshly dumped coolant. I spun, harmlessly, just before the apex at turn 4 at SP--a puckering place to start--, but several cars following were not so lucky with the outcome. The antifreeze ban became real attractive ever since, imho.

ltc

My son's 2 cycle FR125 Rotax kart engine runs on 100% distilled water (tech rules).
Since we race into November in the Northeast, it is absolutely necessary to drain and blow out the radiator/cylinder head......$500 cylinder heads tend to crack easily.

jford

Marc,

I think we are speaking about the same incident. Hope to see you Easter weekend.

jamie

mhm993

Jamie, you would have been on the track for our afternoon bumper car event.

I've been thinking about an antifreeze ban since that afternoon. . I do realize, however, that the new seat rules and an antifreeze ban might put us on a slippery slope toward almost banning street cars at DE.

Mindy and I are looking forward to the Easter event. See you 'round the paddock.

Lawrence_P

Well, I am happy to say my track car is a 993. But my race bike runs Evans NPG (http://www.evanscooling.com/catalog/C_npg1.htm) which is permitted at most tracks. When they say "only water" they do not know of nonslippery alternatives. And Water Wetter is a PIA in the Northeast, in February.