Driver's Ed Recommendations
02-06-2003, 09:45 PM
#16
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Kent, with some due respect, there is a difference between practicing driving around in open lots and running a race track for 30 minutes at a time. Here's the differences as I can think of them at 8:28 PM Thursday:
On the street, your tires do not heat up, that I absolutely guarantee with no equivication. I do not care if they feel warm or hot to the touch, they do not get heat *in* them. Your brakes? They do not get enough heat into them to become useless (I am not talking about fading, I am talking about worthless - take a street pad to the track, you'll know what I am talking about). Race tracks have corner workers not police - big difference. Race tracks have drivable curbing, streets do not. Race tracks have well-known lap records, an abandoned airport does not - these give you a great perspective of your relative skillset. Seat time on the street is wreckless, nothing more, nothing less. If you could even manage to replicate track conditions for more than 3 or 4 turns in a row, you should be arrested. There is ZERO comparison.
Please understand that a vast majority of the folks that go to driver's schools or auto-x already consider themselves in the top 1% of street drivers out there - they wouldn't be there otherwise. I know that I was entirely capable of handling a car at the limit on the street (whatever joke of a concept that was to me at the time), it has no bearing on your relative ability on track - like I said, you are out there with a bunch of people just as conceptually talented as you.
Here's what I am getting at; if you are taking turns on the street consistently where any slight lift or movement of the wheel would send you careening into the curb, then yes, you are driving like you would on the track - try doing that for 30 minutes straight and write me from either jail or the morque.
I don't mean to sound pissy but I find your comparisons without basis in reality since you have only experienced half of the equation. Some of the folks here have experience in both halves.
On the street, your tires do not heat up, that I absolutely guarantee with no equivication. I do not care if they feel warm or hot to the touch, they do not get heat *in* them. Your brakes? They do not get enough heat into them to become useless (I am not talking about fading, I am talking about worthless - take a street pad to the track, you'll know what I am talking about). Race tracks have corner workers not police - big difference. Race tracks have drivable curbing, streets do not. Race tracks have well-known lap records, an abandoned airport does not - these give you a great perspective of your relative skillset. Seat time on the street is wreckless, nothing more, nothing less. If you could even manage to replicate track conditions for more than 3 or 4 turns in a row, you should be arrested. There is ZERO comparison.
Please understand that a vast majority of the folks that go to driver's schools or auto-x already consider themselves in the top 1% of street drivers out there - they wouldn't be there otherwise. I know that I was entirely capable of handling a car at the limit on the street (whatever joke of a concept that was to me at the time), it has no bearing on your relative ability on track - like I said, you are out there with a bunch of people just as conceptually talented as you.
Here's what I am getting at; if you are taking turns on the street consistently where any slight lift or movement of the wheel would send you careening into the curb, then yes, you are driving like you would on the track - try doing that for 30 minutes straight and write me from either jail or the morque.
I don't mean to sound pissy but I find your comparisons without basis in reality since you have only experienced half of the equation. Some of the folks here have experience in both halves.
02-06-2003, 10:55 PM
#17
Race Car
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Kent M. Wood:
<strong>...it would take a pretty unaware person, especially one that says he's read books, and has listened to you guys to not know exactly what to do and know whether or not there is improvement. I guess you could admit that since you possibly didn't learn how to do the proper techniques without instruction, it would be fair to say that someone could and surely has...just like people walking onto professional and college sports teams with no official training. it does happen ...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Okay. This is making me nuts.
Kent M. Wood seems like a nice enough guy, honestly, with a genuine interest in Porsches...
...but beyond that, I'd like to say for the benefit of other people who might be reading and posting in this thread at least those who haven't already figured it out):
He simply has no idea what he's talking about.
Kent, I don't say this to **** you off. I don't know you. I have no reason to like or dislike you. I apologize if this makes you feel as though you're getting picked on by a total stranger.
But any number of people might read through this thread and simply not know any better about what information is useful, and what isn't. They see "take a driver's skills course" in one post, and "hot dog around with your older brothers in an empty parking lot" in another. If they're new to the world of Porsches and performance driving, they might take each of those statements with equal gravity.
Kent, go to a track and get some instruction. I promise you your opinion of everything you've read and typed here will change.
I promise.
To put it in perspective, there are postings I made on different 911 BBS's from years back that I cringe, now, when I read. I thought that I had it all figured out because I could throw my car around a little bit. I was way, way off. I see that now.
You'll feel the same way, one day -- assuming you get some instruction. But until then, you need to show a little humility with the people here who are genuinely offering their experience and expertise to total strangers. You are throwing useless data into a resource that is very useful for people. Take a breath. Read more, type a little less.
<strong>...it would take a pretty unaware person, especially one that says he's read books, and has listened to you guys to not know exactly what to do and know whether or not there is improvement. I guess you could admit that since you possibly didn't learn how to do the proper techniques without instruction, it would be fair to say that someone could and surely has...just like people walking onto professional and college sports teams with no official training. it does happen ...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Okay. This is making me nuts.
Kent M. Wood seems like a nice enough guy, honestly, with a genuine interest in Porsches...
...but beyond that, I'd like to say for the benefit of other people who might be reading and posting in this thread at least those who haven't already figured it out):
He simply has no idea what he's talking about.
Kent, I don't say this to **** you off. I don't know you. I have no reason to like or dislike you. I apologize if this makes you feel as though you're getting picked on by a total stranger.
But any number of people might read through this thread and simply not know any better about what information is useful, and what isn't. They see "take a driver's skills course" in one post, and "hot dog around with your older brothers in an empty parking lot" in another. If they're new to the world of Porsches and performance driving, they might take each of those statements with equal gravity.
Kent, go to a track and get some instruction. I promise you your opinion of everything you've read and typed here will change.
I promise.
To put it in perspective, there are postings I made on different 911 BBS's from years back that I cringe, now, when I read. I thought that I had it all figured out because I could throw my car around a little bit. I was way, way off. I see that now.
You'll feel the same way, one day -- assuming you get some instruction. But until then, you need to show a little humility with the people here who are genuinely offering their experience and expertise to total strangers. You are throwing useless data into a resource that is very useful for people. Take a breath. Read more, type a little less.
02-06-2003, 11:50 PM
#18
Nordschleife Master
Heh-heh-heh. I was just waiting for that outburst. Excellent restraint and eloquence, Adam and Jack.Kent, the guys on this board have race cars and have been racing them both as a hobby as well as a profession for the last umpteen years. Some of them are instructors at race driving schools or DE's, and have been so for umpteen years as well. If you go to the rennlist main page, you will see news and updates on The Racers Group. In case you don't know, that's the car that recently won the 24 hours at Daytona, both in GT and overall. I would not be surprised if the drivers/owners of the car are in this forum posting under a pseudonym. They are in a league totally different from you or I. Do not assume otherwise.
Just to show you what I mean, I went to an open lapping day at a track. No instructors, minimal amenities. I met a father and son there. The son had been racing for 7 years at that track. When I told them that it was my first time at that track, the father offered to sit in the passenger seat as an instructor. Excellent instructor. Not to mention free of charge. When I started complimenting the Dad, the son smiled broadly. Turns out the dad is a local celebrity, a retired professional driver for Porsche. I was glad I did not say anything about what a great driver I thought I was.
Since you ask, I live in the Cleveland area. The three tracks are <a href="http://www.midohio.com/" target="_blank">Mid-Ohio</a> , <a href="http://www.beaverun.com/" target="_blank">Beaver Run</a> , and <a href="http://www.na-motorsports.com/Tracks/Nelson.html" target="_blank">Nelson Ledges</a> .
BTW, Eric, to help answer the original question about getting started on DE, here's partial listing of tracks. One may be near you: <a href="http://www.na-motorsports.com/Tracks/roadcrs.html#NP" target="_blank">Road Courses</a> .
02-07-2003, 03:19 AM
#19
Burning Brakes
There are 3 tracks almost that close to LA where the original poster is. Maybe 2 hours away - Fontana, Buttonwillow, Willow Springs, and Streets of Willow. Hey, that's four!
02-07-2003, 02:42 PM
#20
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Palting,
I have to add a additional comment to your last posting about Kevin Buckler. (Fantastic run at Daytona, he has a lot of great guys on the team and a family that supports him all the way, I was lucky enough to be at the Rolex 24 last week) Kevin happened to be the "guest speaker" at the Porsche Owner's Club awards banquet a couple of weeks ago. The Board wanted him to share his experiences at Le Mans last year with the members, but in conversation with Kevin and Debra before dinner, Kevin expressed his desire to share with the attendees what the club had done for him. In his talk he shared how when he was younger and just getting into the Porsche scene with a older starter car he joined the club and started through the program. Obviously he had talent, but he talked about his instructors (and there were many) and their patience, the different events, learning the tracks... Then he looked around at the membership and pointed out some of his instructors, asked for a show of hands of everyone that had instructed him in the years past. It was a very enjoyable talk by Kevin.
My point is to all newbies, is that these same guys are available to you at DE events and programs offered by reputable driving clubs at your local tracks. The instruction is free with the price of the event. Isn't that a no-brainer!
I have to add a additional comment to your last posting about Kevin Buckler. (Fantastic run at Daytona, he has a lot of great guys on the team and a family that supports him all the way, I was lucky enough to be at the Rolex 24 last week) Kevin happened to be the "guest speaker" at the Porsche Owner's Club awards banquet a couple of weeks ago. The Board wanted him to share his experiences at Le Mans last year with the members, but in conversation with Kevin and Debra before dinner, Kevin expressed his desire to share with the attendees what the club had done for him. In his talk he shared how when he was younger and just getting into the Porsche scene with a older starter car he joined the club and started through the program. Obviously he had talent, but he talked about his instructors (and there were many) and their patience, the different events, learning the tracks... Then he looked around at the membership and pointed out some of his instructors, asked for a show of hands of everyone that had instructed him in the years past. It was a very enjoyable talk by Kevin.
My point is to all newbies, is that these same guys are available to you at DE events and programs offered by reputable driving clubs at your local tracks. The instruction is free with the price of the event. Isn't that a no-brainer!
02-07-2003, 07:21 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
Its really just not seat time. So, in essence, its not hours and hours of practice, its hours and hours of PERFECT practice. you can do this easliy by hooking up with the right instructors or race guys on the track. Video ever turn, and watch it as well as others footage and Learn learn learn. You will find that you will not understand all the off track excursions by anyone other than first timers when you do it right.
mark
Originally posted by Kent M. Wood:
<strong>Zman, no offense but..."I DO NOT recommend what Kent said: while sliding around a parking lot may be fun, and may help you get used to the sliding sensation, there is: a.) no instruction, so you could be learning improper techniques, and b.) no way of telling if you are improving your skills or not."
...it would take a pretty unaware person, especially one that says he's read books, and has listened to you guys to not know exactly what to do and know whether or not there is improvement. I guess you could admit that since you possibly didn't learn how to do the proper techniques without instruction, it would be fair to say that someone could and surely has...just like people walking onto professional and college sports teams with no official training. it does happen ...and cannot hurt the feedback and learning experience. I never said DEs etc aren't better, but some people don't think of it on their own that they can improve their driving a little bit everytime they get in a car...even if it's only awareness of the car and the surroundings.
you guys have been barking "seat time", I try to agree and somehow someone justifies a way to disagree. i guess i should know that since i'm not "track proven" then i'm not worthy of a good idea.</strong>[/QUOTE]
mark
Originally posted by Kent M. Wood:
<strong>Zman, no offense but..."I DO NOT recommend what Kent said: while sliding around a parking lot may be fun, and may help you get used to the sliding sensation, there is: a.) no instruction, so you could be learning improper techniques, and b.) no way of telling if you are improving your skills or not."
...it would take a pretty unaware person, especially one that says he's read books, and has listened to you guys to not know exactly what to do and know whether or not there is improvement. I guess you could admit that since you possibly didn't learn how to do the proper techniques without instruction, it would be fair to say that someone could and surely has...just like people walking onto professional and college sports teams with no official training. it does happen ...and cannot hurt the feedback and learning experience. I never said DEs etc aren't better, but some people don't think of it on their own that they can improve their driving a little bit everytime they get in a car...even if it's only awareness of the car and the surroundings.
you guys have been barking "seat time", I try to agree and somehow someone justifies a way to disagree. i guess i should know that since i'm not "track proven" then i'm not worthy of a good idea.</strong>[/QUOTE]
02-07-2003, 07:45 PM
#22
The more I think about it the more I cringe at the thought of the "do it yourself" autocross. The idea of doing that is absolutely unsafe.
First if you are inexperienced (and if you were experienced you wouldn't be there in the first place!) your level of understanding vehicle dynamics may lead you to hit a pole or curb you didn't think was a problem. Imagine how much fun it would be to sit in your upside down car, critically injured waiting for someone to find you.
Second you will have no security. This is the type of activity that attracts attention. Imagine how it would feel to come squealing around your practice 180 and find yourself barreling down on a 5-year-old who wandered in to watch. Imagine how it would be on your closed airport runway to see an airplane coming to land on you! You cannot underestimate the stupidity of the general public. To engage in a little namedropping, in the days when Kevin Buckler was a member of my PCA region, we had autocrosses on the unused portion of a parking lot at a horsetrack. Patrons of the track would go out of their way to go around or through our barriers to cut across our course to exit (instead of just going around, and in spite of cars on the track!!) You need people there for safety sake and the only real way to do that is through organized events.
First if you are inexperienced (and if you were experienced you wouldn't be there in the first place!) your level of understanding vehicle dynamics may lead you to hit a pole or curb you didn't think was a problem. Imagine how much fun it would be to sit in your upside down car, critically injured waiting for someone to find you.
Second you will have no security. This is the type of activity that attracts attention. Imagine how it would feel to come squealing around your practice 180 and find yourself barreling down on a 5-year-old who wandered in to watch. Imagine how it would be on your closed airport runway to see an airplane coming to land on you! You cannot underestimate the stupidity of the general public. To engage in a little namedropping, in the days when Kevin Buckler was a member of my PCA region, we had autocrosses on the unused portion of a parking lot at a horsetrack. Patrons of the track would go out of their way to go around or through our barriers to cut across our course to exit (instead of just going around, and in spite of cars on the track!!) You need people there for safety sake and the only real way to do that is through organized events.
02-07-2003, 09:41 PM
#23
Drifting
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Adam Richman:
<strong>...If you could even manage to replicate track conditions for more than 3 or 4 turns in a row, you should be arrested. There is ZERO comparison...I know that I was entirely capable of handling a car at the limit on the street (whatever joke of a concept that was to me at the time)...if you are taking turns on the street consistently where any slight lift or movement of the wheel would send you careening into the curb, then yes, you are driving like you would on the track - try doing that for 30 minutes straight and write me from either jail or the morque...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Amen Brother. I remember the first DE event that I did. I went in thinking I was a pretty good natural driver. Even during my first session - I felt like I was flying, passed more than I was passed - Man I'm pretty darn good at this. Then I took my first ever instructor ride with a buddy who had a 951 similar to mine and 15+ years of track time.
Let the Enlightenment Begin. Thinking back it was laughable at how slow I was going compared to how fast he was going. I remember that the first several rides I had a tough time really focusing on what my instructor was doing because it was all happening in a blur. Funny thing though - after a couple of years of doing this, I can now sit with an instructor barreling down a track and have a casual conversation about what's going on. Also when I get stuck behind a newbie at an open track day I feel as if I behind a little old lady going through a school zone.
I have also found that my street driving has completely mellowed. It all seems sort of pointless since I can't even approach what is possible on a track, and by comparison spririted street driving is boring (I must admit to taking the correct "line" when turning onto my street)
The moral of the story is that there is no substitue to track time. Its getting the time under your belt that gets you accustomed to the speed of tyhinks helps everyhting slow down so to speak.
<strong>...If you could even manage to replicate track conditions for more than 3 or 4 turns in a row, you should be arrested. There is ZERO comparison...I know that I was entirely capable of handling a car at the limit on the street (whatever joke of a concept that was to me at the time)...if you are taking turns on the street consistently where any slight lift or movement of the wheel would send you careening into the curb, then yes, you are driving like you would on the track - try doing that for 30 minutes straight and write me from either jail or the morque...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Amen Brother. I remember the first DE event that I did. I went in thinking I was a pretty good natural driver. Even during my first session - I felt like I was flying, passed more than I was passed - Man I'm pretty darn good at this. Then I took my first ever instructor ride with a buddy who had a 951 similar to mine and 15+ years of track time.
Let the Enlightenment Begin. Thinking back it was laughable at how slow I was going compared to how fast he was going. I remember that the first several rides I had a tough time really focusing on what my instructor was doing because it was all happening in a blur. Funny thing though - after a couple of years of doing this, I can now sit with an instructor barreling down a track and have a casual conversation about what's going on. Also when I get stuck behind a newbie at an open track day I feel as if I behind a little old lady going through a school zone.
I have also found that my street driving has completely mellowed. It all seems sort of pointless since I can't even approach what is possible on a track, and by comparison spririted street driving is boring (I must admit to taking the correct "line" when turning onto my street)
The moral of the story is that there is no substitue to track time. Its getting the time under your belt that gets you accustomed to the speed of tyhinks helps everyhting slow down so to speak.
02-08-2003, 01:13 AM
#25
Nordschleife Master
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Arthur:
<strong>Mr. Palting,
That picture of you making the right hand turn, rear inner tire off the ground and all....what tires were those?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">All stock C4S OEM wheels on OEM P-Zero Assimetricos. Have since changed to hollow spoke turbo twists. Waiting for Michellin Sport Cups to make C4S sized rear tires. Or may just get P-Corsa this spring.
<strong>Mr. Palting,
That picture of you making the right hand turn, rear inner tire off the ground and all....what tires were those?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">All stock C4S OEM wheels on OEM P-Zero Assimetricos. Have since changed to hollow spoke turbo twists. Waiting for Michellin Sport Cups to make C4S sized rear tires. Or may just get P-Corsa this spring.
02-10-2003, 08:08 PM
#26
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by RSAErick:
<strong>This is an easy one...
Start off by finding your local Porsche Club of America chapter - you can do so by going to their website and searching for your region.
<a href="http://www.pca.org" target="_blank">www.pca.org</a>
Link you your region, and there will be tons of information about scheduled DE events.
FYI, DE events may be "high speed", but are NOT race driving education (although you can certainly apply what you learn in them to racing).
You'll have a GREAT time, too!!!
Good luck.
Erick</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">
<strong>This is an easy one...
Start off by finding your local Porsche Club of America chapter - you can do so by going to their website and searching for your region.
<a href="http://www.pca.org" target="_blank">www.pca.org</a>
Link you your region, and there will be tons of information about scheduled DE events.
FYI, DE events may be "high speed", but are NOT race driving education (although you can certainly apply what you learn in them to racing).
You'll have a GREAT time, too!!!
Good luck.
Erick</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">
02-11-2003, 08:43 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Skip Wolfe:
Amen Brother. I remember the first DE event that I did. I went in thinking I was a pretty good natural driver. Even during my first session - I felt like I was flying, passed more than I was passed - Man I'm pretty darn good at this. Then I took my first ever instructor ride with a buddy who had a 951 similar to mine and 15+ years of track time.
Let the Enlightenment Begin. Thinking back it was laughable at how slow I was going compared to how fast he was going. I remember that the first several rides I had a tough time really focusing on what my instructor was doing because it was all happening in a blur. Funny thing though - after a couple of years of doing this, I can now sit with an instructor barreling down a track and have a casual conversation about what's going on. Also when I get stuck behind a newbie at an open track day I feel as if I behind a little old lady going through a school zone.
I have also found that my street driving has completely mellowed. It all seems sort of pointless since I can't even approach what is possible on a track,
BINGO
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> That rings a bell, and I didn't think I was all that fast... but I still spun-out at my first event. Taladega Grand Prix track... late November, with a drizzling rain and 40 degree temp. as I re-call.
Amen Brother. I remember the first DE event that I did. I went in thinking I was a pretty good natural driver. Even during my first session - I felt like I was flying, passed more than I was passed - Man I'm pretty darn good at this. Then I took my first ever instructor ride with a buddy who had a 951 similar to mine and 15+ years of track time.
Let the Enlightenment Begin. Thinking back it was laughable at how slow I was going compared to how fast he was going. I remember that the first several rides I had a tough time really focusing on what my instructor was doing because it was all happening in a blur. Funny thing though - after a couple of years of doing this, I can now sit with an instructor barreling down a track and have a casual conversation about what's going on. Also when I get stuck behind a newbie at an open track day I feel as if I behind a little old lady going through a school zone.
I have also found that my street driving has completely mellowed. It all seems sort of pointless since I can't even approach what is possible on a track,
BINGO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> That rings a bell, and I didn't think I was all that fast... but I still spun-out at my first event. Taladega Grand Prix track... late November, with a drizzling rain and 40 degree temp. as I re-call.
02-12-2003, 12:04 AM
#28
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Eric,
Everybody's got an opinion.
However, it depends on what you're trying to achieve. I started with PCA events and they were very worthwhile. but one of the prevailing opinions was to always turn off PSM (mistake). The people in there are very experienced and helpful (friendly too) but they do have their biases (as we all do) and if they drive older Porsches they tend to underestimate (resent?) the technology and its benefits.
The PDE only looks expensive, once you do it you'll find it gives you an arsenal of information and experience to build upon.
My suggestion do one or two two autocrosses and then spring for the PDE, the insights from Hurley Haywood etc. are invaluable.
Plus going round the track at 143MPH well...
Good luck!
Everybody's got an opinion.
However, it depends on what you're trying to achieve. I started with PCA events and they were very worthwhile. but one of the prevailing opinions was to always turn off PSM (mistake). The people in there are very experienced and helpful (friendly too) but they do have their biases (as we all do) and if they drive older Porsches they tend to underestimate (resent?) the technology and its benefits.
The PDE only looks expensive, once you do it you'll find it gives you an arsenal of information and experience to build upon.
My suggestion do one or two two autocrosses and then spring for the PDE, the insights from Hurley Haywood etc. are invaluable.
Plus going round the track at 143MPH well...
Good luck!
02-12-2003, 01:04 AM
#29
Rennlist Member
Hmmm...
So Mark, does that 928 come with the E-ram or the Super E-ram electric supercharger?...
(sorry, just had to... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )
So Mark, does that 928 come with the E-ram or the Super E-ram electric supercharger?...
(sorry, just had to... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )
02-12-2003, 01:58 PM
#30
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I know I might get flamed for this but I would do a track event and forego the AutoX. In our local region you get 4-6 1 min runs for an 8 hr. day whereas a DE you get 4 25 min runs. This is not to say that there is an immense amout you can learn at an AutoX but the seat time just isn't there. I would suggest you talk to a few folks in your local region and find out how the autox's are run. You region might be different from mine and you might get more seat time.
Cheers, James
Cheers, James
