90-93 Euro Cup Cars in GTC-1 now?
12-02-2002, 05:52 PM
#17
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by Greg Fishman:
<strong>Why don't you just put an interior and ballast in your car?</strong><hr></blockquote>
No heater, A/C, suspension is set-up for 2450lbs and adding 330+ lbs will really kill the performance of the car when you only have 129 hp at the wheels.
Sure it is option, but a real pain especially for a low budget car such as mine (7k).
I am really in one of those... "It would be nice to have.." positions.
Now I along with anyone else with old cars can choose to keep them in Stock with full (heavy) weight or try to go GT and keep-up with super fast cars.
Sure if you have $60k car you may want to keep the interior, but when you start with $3k car and want to go racing cheaply you toss the interior and other junk since it is very cheap speed.
Of course that mean GT for PCA which eliminates any change to even come close to competing.
I though about proposing a rule change to allow interior removal and non-racing part removal as a 2 class stock bump (proiveded everything else is stock legal), but have not since I figure it would get shot down faster than I could even finish my reasons why....
<strong>Why don't you just put an interior and ballast in your car?</strong><hr></blockquote>
No heater, A/C, suspension is set-up for 2450lbs and adding 330+ lbs will really kill the performance of the car when you only have 129 hp at the wheels.
Sure it is option, but a real pain especially for a low budget car such as mine (7k).
I am really in one of those... "It would be nice to have.." positions.
Now I along with anyone else with old cars can choose to keep them in Stock with full (heavy) weight or try to go GT and keep-up with super fast cars.
Sure if you have $60k car you may want to keep the interior, but when you start with $3k car and want to go racing cheaply you toss the interior and other junk since it is very cheap speed.
Of course that mean GT for PCA which eliminates any change to even come close to competing.
I though about proposing a rule change to allow interior removal and non-racing part removal as a 2 class stock bump (proiveded everything else is stock legal), but have not since I figure it would get shot down faster than I could even finish my reasons why....
12-02-2002, 09:17 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
Please don't miss the point. My car, the US Carrera Cup is street legal and therefore belongs in a stock class. I agree that some of the cars are not classed correctly.
My complaint is simple. Listen to the racers and come up with a better way.
It isn't about the euro cars being put into GTC, it is about the Porsche Club Racing coming up with a system to listemn us better than what we have.
If you have ever written a letter for a rule proposal change or ever filed a protest, you would understand this.
Jim Newman
My complaint is simple. Listen to the racers and come up with a better way.
It isn't about the euro cars being put into GTC, it is about the Porsche Club Racing coming up with a system to listemn us better than what we have.
If you have ever written a letter for a rule proposal change or ever filed a protest, you would understand this.
Jim Newman
12-03-2002, 02:40 AM
#19
Burning Brakes
[quote]Originally posted by clubrcr:
<strong> My car, the US Carrera Cup is street legal and therefore belongs in a stock class.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Jim, your point is well taken as far as the big picture is concerned.
As for details, when you prepared your car did you fit a rollcage meeting the 'Andial' spec, meaning the rollcage extends into the engine compartment like all other Carrera Cups? After your car was prepared for racing does it not resemble a Euro spec Carrera Cup in almost every detail? If not your car, have you not seen USA Cups prepared in this manner? Is not street legal just a legality at this point?
<strong> My car, the US Carrera Cup is street legal and therefore belongs in a stock class.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Jim, your point is well taken as far as the big picture is concerned.
As for details, when you prepared your car did you fit a rollcage meeting the 'Andial' spec, meaning the rollcage extends into the engine compartment like all other Carrera Cups? After your car was prepared for racing does it not resemble a Euro spec Carrera Cup in almost every detail? If not your car, have you not seen USA Cups prepared in this manner? Is not street legal just a legality at this point?
12-03-2002, 10:53 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
[quote]Originally posted by JC in NY:
<strong>
As for details, when you prepared your car did you fit a rollcage meeting the 'Andial' spec, meaning the rollcage extends into the engine compartment like all other Carrera Cups? After your car was prepared for racing does it not resemble a Euro spec Carrera Cup in almost every detail? If not your car, have you not seen USA Cups prepared in this manner? Is not street legal just a legality at this point?</strong><hr></blockquote>
No my car does not have the roll cage bolted to the suspension points. My car more resembles the US C-2 than the Racing version, although the Cup does has an advantage which is why they have moved it up into the "D" class. Remember, Porsche Club used weight to bhp ratios. Mine is in the middle of my race class.
I just want to race on a level playing field. It is my belief that stock cars should remain stock except for factory based options and safety equipment. People stretch the rules and it shouldn't be that way.
A 993 that I race against has had cockpit adjustable sway bars for the last 4 years and this year PCA is finally doing soemthing about it. Was that ever an option? The rules specifically state is must be soething supplied by the Porsche Dealer at the time of manaufacture. They also say that sway bars are free???
How many cars have you seen that have RS 3.8 type spoliers on their cars. That was NEVER an option on the car especially on 3.2 Carerras. They get away with this because of the leading edge rule? These are just a few... I can go on and on.
PCA should have to have a campaign for rule changes, they should watch through the year and make sure people "do the right thing!" It works for the pros!
Jim
<strong>
As for details, when you prepared your car did you fit a rollcage meeting the 'Andial' spec, meaning the rollcage extends into the engine compartment like all other Carrera Cups? After your car was prepared for racing does it not resemble a Euro spec Carrera Cup in almost every detail? If not your car, have you not seen USA Cups prepared in this manner? Is not street legal just a legality at this point?</strong><hr></blockquote>
No my car does not have the roll cage bolted to the suspension points. My car more resembles the US C-2 than the Racing version, although the Cup does has an advantage which is why they have moved it up into the "D" class. Remember, Porsche Club used weight to bhp ratios. Mine is in the middle of my race class.
I just want to race on a level playing field. It is my belief that stock cars should remain stock except for factory based options and safety equipment. People stretch the rules and it shouldn't be that way.
A 993 that I race against has had cockpit adjustable sway bars for the last 4 years and this year PCA is finally doing soemthing about it. Was that ever an option? The rules specifically state is must be soething supplied by the Porsche Dealer at the time of manaufacture. They also say that sway bars are free???
How many cars have you seen that have RS 3.8 type spoliers on their cars. That was NEVER an option on the car especially on 3.2 Carerras. They get away with this because of the leading edge rule? These are just a few... I can go on and on.
PCA should have to have a campaign for rule changes, they should watch through the year and make sure people "do the right thing!" It works for the pros!
Jim
12-03-2002, 11:34 AM
#21
Burning Brakes
I hear you. There's also alot of variation around the country. What runs in stock on the West coast or in Florida may be prepared or Superclass in the Northeast - and vice versa.
12-03-2002, 11:40 AM
#22
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by clubrcr:
<strong>Please don't miss the point. My car, the US Carrera Cup is street legal and therefore belongs in a stock class. I agree that some of the cars are not classed correctly.
My complaint is simple. Listen to the racers and come up with a better way.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Jim, The idea of street legal cars in stock class is fine except that in the US street legal can still be highly modified. My car can be street legal with the addition of a car and proper muffler. No big deal since these can be removed for racing. I have heard that headlights are not even required for street legality, but I'd rather not challenge that one
.
Anyway for these reasons stock classes are not by defintion street legal classes.
Now I do understand your sentiment about Listening to the racers since without Racers PCA club racing is nothing.
To me the stock classes are really strange. Since a stock class car can still have 10-30k in development put into them and still be stock? To me I don't understand this.
To me stock classes should be just that STOCK. Stock motors and stock suspension, stock wheels. No fancy $3000 shocks and $5000 wheels.
To allow for some improvements car there needs to be an "improved stock" class that allows low cost modificatons one of these being cheap weight reduction in the form of non-essential part removal.
So my idea
Stock = STOCK
Prepared (Move up one stock class) = Stock Engine & drive train Upgraded suspension (similar to stock now, but closer scrutiny)
Improved (move up 2 stock class) = Stock Engine & Drive Train Upgraded Suspension & non-essential item removal No min weight.. Must retain stock external appearance and factory body panels and glass)
GT = free for all as currently written
GTC1&2 = for 993 Cup and 996 Cup
Where do 90-93 Cup cars Euro and US go? Put them in the proper stock class based on the Stock, Prepared, Improve model since most of these cars seems to already have been modifed from origianl Cup specs in one way or another. Start off in D stock and consider factor modes as part of the prepared/improved model. This way it seems to me that most Euro or US cars in Euro trim would go to B stock. But that also means most full prepped D stock cars would go to C to it is really 1 class bump. US spec cars to RSA weight would go to C just were a well prepped current D stock car would be. A BONE STOCK RSA would stay in D.
IF this is fouls up the classes then Move a BONE STOCK car down one class and leave the current level stock prep in the stock class
For Example
Street Stock (Down one class)= True street car with stock suspension and DOT race tires with safety gear only
Stock = Leave as currently is
Prepared A = (up one stock class) = Per Current prepared rules.
Prepared B (up one stock class)= Per Stock rules with weight reduction. Stock Engine & Drive Train Upgraded Suspension & non-essential item removal No min weight.. Must retain stock external appearance and factory body panels and glass)
Just my $0.00002 Flame away!!!!
<img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />
<strong>Please don't miss the point. My car, the US Carrera Cup is street legal and therefore belongs in a stock class. I agree that some of the cars are not classed correctly.
My complaint is simple. Listen to the racers and come up with a better way.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Jim, The idea of street legal cars in stock class is fine except that in the US street legal can still be highly modified. My car can be street legal with the addition of a car and proper muffler. No big deal since these can be removed for racing. I have heard that headlights are not even required for street legality, but I'd rather not challenge that one
. Anyway for these reasons stock classes are not by defintion street legal classes.
Now I do understand your sentiment about Listening to the racers since without Racers PCA club racing is nothing.
To me the stock classes are really strange. Since a stock class car can still have 10-30k in development put into them and still be stock? To me I don't understand this.
To me stock classes should be just that STOCK. Stock motors and stock suspension, stock wheels. No fancy $3000 shocks and $5000 wheels.
To allow for some improvements car there needs to be an "improved stock" class that allows low cost modificatons one of these being cheap weight reduction in the form of non-essential part removal.
So my idea
Stock = STOCK
Prepared (Move up one stock class) = Stock Engine & drive train Upgraded suspension (similar to stock now, but closer scrutiny)
Improved (move up 2 stock class) = Stock Engine & Drive Train Upgraded Suspension & non-essential item removal No min weight.. Must retain stock external appearance and factory body panels and glass)
GT = free for all as currently written
GTC1&2 = for 993 Cup and 996 Cup
Where do 90-93 Cup cars Euro and US go? Put them in the proper stock class based on the Stock, Prepared, Improve model since most of these cars seems to already have been modifed from origianl Cup specs in one way or another. Start off in D stock and consider factor modes as part of the prepared/improved model. This way it seems to me that most Euro or US cars in Euro trim would go to B stock. But that also means most full prepped D stock cars would go to C to it is really 1 class bump. US spec cars to RSA weight would go to C just were a well prepped current D stock car would be. A BONE STOCK RSA would stay in D.
IF this is fouls up the classes then Move a BONE STOCK car down one class and leave the current level stock prep in the stock class
For Example
Street Stock (Down one class)= True street car with stock suspension and DOT race tires with safety gear only
Stock = Leave as currently is
Prepared A = (up one stock class) = Per Current prepared rules.
Prepared B (up one stock class)= Per Stock rules with weight reduction. Stock Engine & Drive Train Upgraded Suspension & non-essential item removal No min weight.. Must retain stock external appearance and factory body panels and glass)
Just my $0.00002 Flame away!!!!
<img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />
12-03-2002, 02:10 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
No Flames, I tend to agree with the majority of your post. My car is not a euro cup and since the 964 C-2 Class is not "D", by but virtue of my car a more sophiscated car, as well as faster, I have already been moved up atleast one group.I was in favor of moving the RSAs back down a group
The "street legal" verbage for stock is PCA rules not mine. If you read why they moved the euro cup cars up to GTC, their reason was based on the euro cup, although could be driven on the street in Germany, is not streetable in the USA.
I believe you and I or on the same page, one other factor must be by what type of car wins the most. If you class two cars in the same group with two equal drivers and one comes out winning on a consistent basis you have to either handicap that car or re-class it. This is done all the time in Grand AM, SCCA Pro Racing, NASCAR, etc.
I agree, stock should be bone stock! It would be a more equal playing field and by virtue of dollars spent, it could open the door to more racers.
Jim
The "street legal" verbage for stock is PCA rules not mine. If you read why they moved the euro cup cars up to GTC, their reason was based on the euro cup, although could be driven on the street in Germany, is not streetable in the USA.
I believe you and I or on the same page, one other factor must be by what type of car wins the most. If you class two cars in the same group with two equal drivers and one comes out winning on a consistent basis you have to either handicap that car or re-class it. This is done all the time in Grand AM, SCCA Pro Racing, NASCAR, etc.
I agree, stock should be bone stock! It would be a more equal playing field and by virtue of dollars spent, it could open the door to more racers.
Jim
12-03-2002, 02:21 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
I took this expert from the rationale, by Porsche Club Racing, of why they were moving the Euro Cups.
"It is possible some cars were registered for the street in Germany, but it was not sold for street use, and it cannot be registered in the U.S."
By the way 1992 C-2 belongs in the "F" class. By your comment of classes based on improvements, my US Cup Car has already been moved up 2 classes.
Jim
"It is possible some cars were registered for the street in Germany, but it was not sold for street use, and it cannot be registered in the U.S."
By the way 1992 C-2 belongs in the "F" class. By your comment of classes based on improvements, my US Cup Car has already been moved up 2 classes.
Jim
12-03-2002, 02:47 PM
#25
Race Director
Jim,
My putting it in D was assuming that its most similar Normal Production model was the RSA. My guess what the US Carrera Cup could be considered a modified RSA rather than a Modified C2.
Sorry if I am wrong on this as I am not a 964 expert.
Honestly It takes quite a bit of model spefic knowledge to properly classify cars especially limited prodution cars like the RSA and all Cup cars.
My putting it in D was assuming that its most similar Normal Production model was the RSA. My guess what the US Carrera Cup could be considered a modified RSA rather than a Modified C2.
Sorry if I am wrong on this as I am not a 964 expert.
Honestly It takes quite a bit of model spefic knowledge to properly classify cars especially limited prodution cars like the RSA and all Cup cars.
12-03-2002, 02:57 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
I agree. Before I bought a car, I called and personally spoke to several PCA officals to make sure I was buying the right car to race.
I had previuosly had a 993GT2 (factory car) and a 934. These cars were even outclasses in teh GT1R class. I wanted to get away from spending alot of money to keep racing.
I guess I can understand the frustration the Euro Cup car guys are having. They have spent money to make there cars competetive in the stock classes and now will spend even more money to get them back to Euro Cup specs.
Bottom Line: I guess it is easier to be an arm chair quarterback and tell everyone how to fix the class system. Maybe it will never be perfect, but at the Roebling Club Race this weekend, I will have a great time!
Jim
I had previuosly had a 993GT2 (factory car) and a 934. These cars were even outclasses in teh GT1R class. I wanted to get away from spending alot of money to keep racing.
I guess I can understand the frustration the Euro Cup car guys are having. They have spent money to make there cars competetive in the stock classes and now will spend even more money to get them back to Euro Cup specs.
Bottom Line: I guess it is easier to be an arm chair quarterback and tell everyone how to fix the class system. Maybe it will never be perfect, but at the Roebling Club Race this weekend, I will have a great time!
Jim
12-03-2002, 03:25 PM
#27
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Actually, for 2003 C2's have been moved to E. RSA's in D.
From PCA CR website:
"· Move the 1990-1994 911 C2s from F to E class (C4s to stay in F).
This change is made primarily because of the technical characteristics of the C2, and secondarily because of their very strong performance in F-class. Moving the 90-94 C2s from F to E is more consistent with: 1) the improvements in the car over the earlier Carrera; 2) the classification of the RSA; and 3) the overall classification of 911s. However, the C4s are to stay in F for now. These are rare in Club Racing, and presently do not show the same performance as the C2; the C4's additional 166 lbs. is enough of a handicap to stay in F."
From PCA CR website:
"· Move the 1990-1994 911 C2s from F to E class (C4s to stay in F).
This change is made primarily because of the technical characteristics of the C2, and secondarily because of their very strong performance in F-class. Moving the 90-94 C2s from F to E is more consistent with: 1) the improvements in the car over the earlier Carrera; 2) the classification of the RSA; and 3) the overall classification of 911s. However, the C4s are to stay in F for now. These are rare in Club Racing, and presently do not show the same performance as the C2; the C4's additional 166 lbs. is enough of a handicap to stay in F."
12-03-2002, 03:42 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Greg Fishman:
[QB]Actually, for 2003 C2's have been moved to E. RSA's in D.
From PCA CR website:
"· Move the 1990-1994 911 C2s from F to E class (C4s to stay in F)."
I understand the move. I was originally stating the C-2 as per 2002 rules were in F, and the 2002 rules state the RSA are in "D".
Don't miss how PCA had put each car in each group. It has all been done by weight/bhp. My car in the "D" class. My bhp/weight ratio is less than the 993 and the 911 turbo which are both in that class. If that is the case, do you think the 993 which has a higher bhp/weight ratio is a more sophiscated car? I think it is.
I'm not looking for flames or a debate, just an understanding of how the rules work.
PCA wouldn't be moving the C-2 964 into a new group if they though it was fair in the "f" group. I would assume that the C-2 was dominating that group. The 993 and the 911 turbo dominates "D" class.
Jim
[QB]Actually, for 2003 C2's have been moved to E. RSA's in D.
From PCA CR website:
"· Move the 1990-1994 911 C2s from F to E class (C4s to stay in F)."
I understand the move. I was originally stating the C-2 as per 2002 rules were in F, and the 2002 rules state the RSA are in "D".
Don't miss how PCA had put each car in each group. It has all been done by weight/bhp. My car in the "D" class. My bhp/weight ratio is less than the 993 and the 911 turbo which are both in that class. If that is the case, do you think the 993 which has a higher bhp/weight ratio is a more sophiscated car? I think it is.
I'm not looking for flames or a debate, just an understanding of how the rules work.
PCA wouldn't be moving the C-2 964 into a new group if they though it was fair in the "f" group. I would assume that the C-2 was dominating that group. The 993 and the 911 turbo dominates "D" class.
Jim
12-03-2002, 04:47 PM
#29
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Jim,
Actually the car that I have seen win a lot of D class battles is the 944 Turbo Cup car. Very quick and agile car.
I drive a 993 in C and a lot of D cars out accelerate me on the straight. Heck a lot of E and F cars do as well. Most Euro Cup/US Cup cars I have run with are right with me, no serious hp advantage in my experience. From what I know about the C2s are they are easily modified with headers to produce an extra 20+ hp.
There was actually a petition to put the 993RS spec cars into B with the 996TT's and GT2's, yeah that would have been fair. The proposal was not accepted.
Actually the car that I have seen win a lot of D class battles is the 944 Turbo Cup car. Very quick and agile car.
I drive a 993 in C and a lot of D cars out accelerate me on the straight. Heck a lot of E and F cars do as well. Most Euro Cup/US Cup cars I have run with are right with me, no serious hp advantage in my experience. From what I know about the C2s are they are easily modified with headers to produce an extra 20+ hp.
There was actually a petition to put the 993RS spec cars into B with the 996TT's and GT2's, yeah that would have been fair. The proposal was not accepted.
12-03-2002, 05:01 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
Yes, I agree about the 944 turbo. I ran "nose to tail" with one at Sebring last year. But that was a Turbo Cup car. They are very fast and in my class.
I don't have a problem with my class, I have problem with the contesting the rules policy.
Jim
I don't have a problem with my class, I have problem with the contesting the rules policy.
Jim