Paul Bloomberg

Part of the tech inspection.....The tech inpector drives the car around track??? This is a joke right?

UUHH, Yes Micheal the Tech inspector needs to drive your Ferrari to make sure it is okay for you to drive.
Paul

pig4bill

[quote]Originally posted by Bill Gregory:
<strong>I'll add my two cents. As an instuctor, I like to drive a beginners vehicle during the first two laps. This does two things, it helps me understand the state of tune of the vehicle, and more importantly it allows me time to talk the student through the line at warm-up-lap speeds. In the more advanced run groups, I get in and go without driving. And I'll echo EJ's sentiments - I instruct because I want to help others learn how to successfully drive their vehicles in a track environment. I might even learn how to one day </strong><hr></blockquote>

Why would you need to understand the state of tune of another person's car? And why wouldn't you be able to talk the student through the line while driving your own car?

If an instructor is just trying to get the student safe or competent, I see no reason to have to drive the student's car. It's a different story if the student wants to go faster and is looking for help.

Alan Herod

Seriously part of the responsibility of the instructor is to go over the car with the student. Driving a new student's car at a relatively sedate pace for two laps while demonstrating the line should not be compared with sliding the car around the track at opposite lock. I am sure that every region has some minor differences, but we are encouraged to drive the students car, not flog it. There really is no reason to flog it.

"The tech inpector drives the car around track??? This is a joke right?" Why would that be a joke -- we were referring to driver's ed, not formula, not even club race. I re-read my post and it doesn't read like I meant. The extension of tech is a new idea --

Not a joke, in this case most of the tech team are instructors, and we are all volunteers, and don't get these extra bennies that I keep hearing about. I do welcome your datapoints though -- we have formed an IPT to see how we can do things better. The insurance issue that EJ raised is just one of the things that has to be considered. We have a backlog at grid tech in the morning which impacts the whole schedule. Who has a more vested interested in the safety of the student's car beside the instructor (other then the student himself)?

I too am concerned about the insurance implications of driving another's car, we might have even compromised ourselves by signing off the tech form and what is our responsibility if we let a student wreck their car with us in it.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Bill Gregory

[quote]<strong>Why would you need to understand the state of tune of another person's car? And why wouldn't you be able to talk the student through the line while driving your own car?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

It sounds like we have different programs. In the PCA and BMW DE programs here, the general practice is for the instructor to drive the beginning student's car for the first two warm-up laps. During that time, I'm talking the beginning student through the line and pointing out flag stations. Secondarily, I get a feel for the student's car, which helps me to gauge how far to guide them along the performance envelope (obviously their skills are a critical factor). If we had a different program where we took the student out in our own cars, you're right, line instruction could just as easily be discussed there.

I'll add that I don't see much, if any, accident risk driving the beginning student's car during the warm-up laps while under a standing yellow.

Paul Bloomberg

Alan,
Just having some fun!

Sometimes these posts don't come across the way they are intended!
Paul <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Patricia

From the student's point of view - sometimes having an instructor drive your car is the fastest way to make a big improvement. My first real break-through came when I was doing well, knew the line, but just wasn't getting the speed up. I was being too cautious because I didn't really know what the car could do - and riding in an instructor's car didn't help because none of them had a car set up like mine. I asked an instructor that I trusted to show me what I should be able to do - and made a huge jump forward. I've done this whenever I hit a problem that I just couldn't seem to get through.

When I got my new car, I did the same thing, and saved myself many sessions of figuring out the car. The key is to choose an instructor that I'm very comfortable with, have utmost confidence in, and one who drives a similar car. I do not hand the keys to my car over the first time I meet an instructor!

Now, I've meet Frank but have never had him as an instructor nor I have gone out with him in his car - so I can't say whether or not I'd ask him to drive my car. He certainly seems to be an ok guy. But in theory, I think having an instructor show you the track, in your car, is one of the best ways to improve.

Pat

Phil

Hi Pat,
are you going to Sears Point?

pig4bill

[quote]Originally posted by Bill Gregory:
<strong>It sounds like we have different programs. In the PCA and BMW DE programs here, the general practice is for the instructor to drive the beginning student's car for the first two warm-up laps. During that time, I'm talking the beginning student through the line and pointing out flag stations. Secondarily, I get a feel for the student's car, which helps me to gauge how far to guide them along the performance envelope (obviously their skills are a critical factor). If we had a different program where we took the student out in our own cars, you're right, line instruction could just as easily be discussed there.

I'll add that I don't see much, if any, accident risk driving the beginning student's car during the warm-up laps while under a standing yellow.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It sounds kind of contradictory to me. You want to know what the car will do, yet you're driving at a slow pace? I'm not accustomed to ANYBODY driving my car, but I guess I can adapt - if the instructor puts up a cash bond equal to the replacement value of my car and leaves the seat belt unfastened. After all, there's no accident risk.

GhettoRacer

[quote]Originally posted by pig4bill:
<strong>

It sounds kind of contradictory to me. You want to know what the car will do, yet you're driving at a slow pace? I'm not accustomed to ANYBODY driving my car, but I guess I can adapt - if the instructor puts up a cash bond equal to the replacement value of my car and leaves the seat belt unfastened. After all, there's no accident risk.</strong><hr></blockquote>

One can drive a car at a slow pace, and still get a feel for the balance of the car, reaction of the controls, and a good quick "on the road" test drive. That is what a a lot of clubs do. At the same time, the students get to check out the track, and get a rough idea of the line. You have to remember for beginners, driving on track can be overwhelming. Everything is new. Remembering the track, remember the turn in, apex, exit points, corner workers, remind themselve to look ahead, be aware of traffic... etc. It's just like the very first time you drive. You're scared. But the more you do it, the easier it becomes. I can drive at 10/10th in my own car lap after lap, while still talking to my passenger. It's a walk in the park because I've gotten so much seat time this year. Anyone can get this comfortable if they've got the practice.

Lot of people feel that way about their cars and it's completely normal. Some people love their car and it reflects in how well kept and clean the car is all the times. They don't let anybody drive it but themselves...

Sometimes the cars are well below $25k and they don't want me to drive it. But then sometimes people with their $60k+ cars come up and ask me if I'd like to drive their car. I love it when that happens. "Hey Frank, you want to drive my Z06?" Sure, I'd love to... as I always say no matter what kind of car it is.

Geoffrey

I have to say that I'm not sure I would drive 10/10ths with a passenger, in fact in any DE situation, it simply does not leave enough margin for error. Most people in DEs are there with their street car for fun, not necessarily to get the last hundredth of a second. This all applies to the attitude with which you approach this type of event.

Alan Herod

I have to agree with Geoff here. 10/10ths implies no excess capacity. I do not drive DE at 10/10ths. There are differing views on what 10/10ths is and 10/10ths cannot be the same for everyone. I view it as a system of systems, the driver and the car (another system of systems). Generally a Michael Schummaker qualifying lap is 10/10ths, do you think he could carry on a relaxed conversation. Perhaps this is the start of another thread -- what is 10/10ths? Is there an absolute 10/10ths?

M758

[quote]Originally posted by Geoffrey:
<strong>I have to say that I'm not sure I would drive 10/10ths with a passenger, in fact in any DE situation, it simply does not leave enough margin for error. Most people in DEs are there with their street car for fun, not necessarily to get the last hundredth of a second. This all applies to the attitude with which you approach this type of event.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I would have to agree.

10/10 driving is only for race qualifying. This is the only time you can push that hard on the track. Honeslty if you have time to do anything else other than driviing the car you are not at 10/10th. This is the very limit of you and your car and any miskates will cost you time or even the car. During races I typically only race at 9.5/10ths anyway to leave room for some error and traffic since the single quickest lap counts for nothing. The only thing that counts is the being ahead and the quickest time over the entire race distance.
Once doing a race this september on a track I knew very well and had big lead (20-30 sec). I relaxed a bit before on coner and ended-up sliding the car and going of track. I did kept my momentum and did not hit anything or even lose,but maybe a second. I did learn the critcal importance of keeping you concentration at all times on the track.

During DE I would only recomend students even drive at 7/10 to 8/10 anyway. There is far too much to loose in a DE format to push that hard.

GhettoRacer

*sigh* I really should've just kept my mouth closed in regards to 10/10th.

Anyway, to Pat, Phil or anyone else that will be attending Sears Point on Mon/Tues. Lets hook up for a session. You give me the benefit of doubt and give me a chance, and I will help you, the same way that I help everyone else. I treat my students all the same, regardless of what they drive. I won't act any differently just because of the negative perception people have about me on PDC and Rennlist. And if you're up for it, come take a ride in the little torque less wonder yellow Honda. I'm easy to spot.

Happy Motoring.

GhettoRacer

[quote]Originally posted by JackOlsen:
<strong>Like I said, GhettoRacer's problem could be just in the tone of his posts here. He might be a great instructor, and he might be burning 1:42's at Laguna in his Del Sol. I don't know.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

To give myself some backing... Bill Benz (I believe that's his name), a very nice gentleman who owns this beautiful early 911.





At the earlier Laguna Seca this year @ TracQuest, I took the car out for a session. NOTE: pictures taken at Feb. 2002 @ Thunderhill, that's where I met Bill and gave him a ride in my del Sol. After he rode with me Bill said he would like me to drive his car sometimes.

So when I saw him again at LS, I asked if that offer was still good. I've never driven any 911 pre 1990 and I just wanted few laps to see what they were like. Bill didn't ride along, but instead his friend rode with me. Took it out, and just kinda cruised along, and getting the feel for the car. Passenger decides to time me. He said 1:48. I'm thinking, that can't be right, that would be the fastest I've gone in this track. Got a little more comfortable, and picked up a little speed. 46, 45, and eventually couple of 1:44's. This is all while going very conservative through the corners. The car can easily do sub 1:40 in my estimate. I'd say I took it no more than 7.5/10th through the corners.

So I do have some relative experience in a car some what similar to Jack's and turning similar time. Bill's car is a full race car though... it has an earlier motor that's built that makes like 325 hp. Car weight was something like 2500 lbs with driver and passenger. It was a very good experience for me. The un assisted brakes was interesting, and so was the bouncing RPM needle which had me shortshifting early. After the session I became fond of the earlier Porsche's. Lightweight is cool. I love hearing Stefanowicz beating the latest hardware.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

pig4bill

[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>At the same time, the students get to check out the track, and get a rough idea of the line. You have to remember for beginners, driving on track can be overwhelming. Everything is new. Remembering the track, remember the turn in, apex, exit points, corner workers, remind themselve to look ahead, be aware of traffic... etc. It's just like the very first time you drive. You're scared. But the more you do it, the easier it becomes.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Okay, why is it impossible for me to see this stuff from the right seat of the instructor's car?